Explain why Lebron James is better than Larry Bird

[NYC Rebel]

Larry Bird had mental strength, which offsets with Lebrons athleticism.




the only distinctive part about Lebron is his damn athleticism, just because you hit the genetics lottery it doesn't make u the goat, sorry

Lebron has no footwork compared to Kobe.
Lebron has no midrange shot compared to Jordan.
Lebron has no 3 point shot compared to Klay, Curry or Durant.
Lebron has no free throws compared to Larry Bird.



Speaking of Birds eras pace, I'm sure it offsets with Lebrons High usage rate in comparison to bird.

So you invited friends and created a super player out of all of there best attributes to down Bron.

 

[NYC Rebel]

Ya'all can't really be trying to compare 1980s stats to 2000s stats straight-up.

First, he ignored that Lebron taking way more threes depresses his shooting average unfairly. Because of the threes, Lebron's TS% is actually 58.1%, well above Bird's 56.4%.

In '79-'80, when Bird came into the league, the average game had 220 possessions/game (counting shots and turnovers). By the time he retired in 1992 that had dropped to 210.

In '03-'04, when Lebron came into the league, the average game had 190 possessions/game. It dropped to 186 by '06 before rising to 197 now.


Bird's basically getting a 12% bump on every stat just because guys were running up and down the floor and letting the ball fly in the 1980s. The game was a lot more wide open.


By 100 possessions, the numbers are:

Lebron: 36.9 points, 9.7 boards, 9.4 assists, 2.3 steals, 1.1 blocks
Bird: 30.3 points, 12.5 boards, 7.9 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.0 blocks


Add in the better shooting, and Lebron kills Bird on the advanced stats.

PER: Lebron 27.7, Bird 23.5
Win shares/48: Lebron .240, Bird .203
BPM: Lebron 9.2, Bird 7.2
VORP: Lebron 108.6, Bird 79.7



The only thing Bird has is rebounding, and that was still an era where just being tall was enough to get you massive amounts of boards. People go on and on about all the "great big men" of that era, but that's because a 7' man with athleticism was automatically an NBA starter, and there were plenty of centers running around the same height as Bird/Lebron without anything else to commend them. The pool of big men available today is FAR greater than it was in 1979, and they are FAR more athletic and skilled. It's only that their relative competition and what is required of them has gotten far more difficult - you can't be a low-IQ, slow-footed guy hanging out around the basket all day anymore.





Here's what I posted the last time this comparison came up:

First, here are some of Bird's failures:

1982 ECF: Averages 18-14-7 on 41% shooting and Boston loses to Philly in 7. Bird goes 20-9-11 on 7-18 shooting in losing Game 7 in a blowout.

1983 ECSF: Boston is swept out by a Bucks team whose best players are Moncrief, Johnson, Bridgeman, Lanier and Winters. Bird averages 19-12-6 on 44% shooting on the losing end of the sweep.

1987 Finals: Boston loses to LA in the Finals for the second time in three years. Bird goes 6-16 for a 16-9-5 line in the deciding Game 6 loss. Dennis Johnson had 33-10-5 and McHale had 20 and 10 in that game. Worthy had 22 points on 10-16 shooting in only 36 minutes before fouling out. (Worthy averaged 21-5-4 on 52% shooting for the series.)

1988 ECF: Averages 20-12-6 on 35% shooting as the Celtics go down in 6 to the Pistons. Bird goes 16-14-5 on 4-17 shooting in losing Game 6, while Boston was getting lit up by 6'5" SF Adrian Dantley.


Can you imagine the noise against Lebron if he was putting up 7-18, 6-16, and 4-17 performances in elimination game losses in the Finals and ECF? Can you imagine how much heat he would get if he was repeatedly averaging 20ppg or less over entire series? He did that ONCE and was lambasted for it, Bird did both those things at least four different times, while being worse than Lebron on the defensive end as well. (Even in winning Finals, Bird only averaged 15ppg on 42% shooting in 1981 and was 6-18 in the deciding Game 7 in 1984.)


Now, onto the big "victory" moments of Bird's career:

Bird's 1981 Finals, matched up against the Houston Rockets.

Houston was led in the series by Moses Malone, Robert Reid, and a way-past-his-prime Billy Paultz. They were 40-42 that season - that's right, a team with a losing record made the Finals.

Not only that, but Houston made the Finals by beating Kansas City in the WCF...another team with a 40-42 losing record.

The series went 6 games, with the teams trading wins until Boston took game 6. Bird only scored 8, 8, and 12 points in games 3-5, but played a strong all-around game to help lead them to victory.

Yep, that's right, Larry Bird scored in the single digits in back-to-back Finals games and only averaged 9 ppg over the middle three games.

But Boston could still win, because Houston sucked. No one on Houston's entire top-8 shot better than 41.5% for the series. Only three (Malone, Reid, and Paultz) averaged double-figures.

Finals MVP: Cedric Maxwell, 18-10-3 on 57% shooting
Bird: 15-15-7 with 2 steals on 42% shooting
Parish: 15-8-1 with 1 steal and 2 blocks on 51% shooting
Chris Ford and Tiny Archibald also averaged double-figures for Boston, Carr, Robey, Henderson, and McHale were strong off the bench.



Bird's 1984 Finals, matched up against the Los Angeles Lakers.

Two of the most stacked teams of all time faced off in a massively foul-plagued series (with Boston averaging nearly 40 free throws a game to only 24 by the Lakers).

Bird was 8-22, 9-24, 15-20, and 6-18 in the four Boston wins...one fantastic shooting game and three less memorable ones. He also utterly failed to slow down the Lakers stars - Worthy averaged 22ppg on 64% shooting for the series and Magic averaged 18 points, 8 boards, and 14 assists on 56% shooting. Boston was actually outscored by about 20 points over 7 games, but won two close ones and basically beat the Lakers inside, piling up nearly 20 offensive rebounds/game and going to the free throw line over 100 times more than the Lakers over the course of 7 games.

Bird wasn't the deciding factor in any of the most clutch moments in the series.

Game 2 was won by the Celtics by 3 in overtime. Gerald Henderson had a steal-and-score to send the game into overtime (followed by Magic dribbling out the last 15 seconds of the clock rather than attempting a game-winning shot), then Scott Wedman had the game-winning shot in overtime.

Game 4 was won by the Celtics by 4 in overtime. This was the "Tragic Johnson" game, where Magic blew the game in regulation by throwing the ball to Parish and allowing the game to be tied, then missing 2 free throws in overtime. The game also featured a brawl after McHale's closeline on Kurt Rambis which many credit with causing the Lakers to lose their composure and keeping them from putting the series away. Kareem was fouled out early in overtime with the Lakers ahead, many calling it a bad call. Bird made a big go-ahead jumper for Boston, but M.L. Carr sealed the game with a steal-and-score in the final minute.

In Game 7, Bird finished with 20-12-3 on 6-18 shooting. Boston only shot 39.5% in that game to 49% for the Lakers, but had 20 offensive rebounds (8 by Parish alone) and went 43-51 from the free throw line to claim the victory. Maxwell was 14-17 on free throws, DJ was 12-12, and Bird 8-8. Cedric Maxwell stole the ball from Magic with a minute left and the Celtics clinging to a 3-point-lead, and then DJ hit two free throws to seal the victory.

Finals MVP: Larry Bird, 27-14-4 with 2 steals and a block on 48% shooting
Robert Parish: 15-11-1 with 2 steals and 2 blocks on 44% shooting (Parish led the team with 30 offensive boards)
Kevin McHale: 13-6-1 with a block on 46% shooting
Cedric Maxwell: 13-6-3 with a steal on 45% shooting
Dennis Johnson: 18-4-5 with 2 steals on 40% shooting
Gerald Henderson: 12-3-4 with a steal on 48% shooting



Bird's 1986 Finals, matched up against the Houston Rockets.

A different team than the 1981 Rockets that Boston had faced, but still basically "a great center and little else". Houston was led by a 23-year-old Hakeem (long before he'd developed most of his dominant post moves), and surrounded him with Rodney McCray, Ralph Sampson, Robert Reid, and Lewis Loyd. Meanwhile, Boston was still stacked as hell.

Boston started Bird-Parish-McHale-Ainge-Johnson, with Bill Walton as the 6th Man of the Year.
Houston started young Hakeem-Sampson-Reid-McCray-Loyd, with Wiggins as the 6th man.

The series went to 6, but really Boston was the dominant team, outscoring Houston by nearly 40 over 6 games.

Finals MVP: Larry Bird, 24-9.5-9.7 and 3 steals/game on 48% shooting
McHale: 26-9-2 and 3 blocks/game on 57% shooting
Johnson: 17-6-5 and 2 steals/game on 42% shooting
Ainge: 15-4-6 and 3 steals/game on 56% shooting
Parish: 13-7-1 and 2 blocks/game on 42% shooting
Walton: 8-7-2 and 1 block/game on 62% shooting



Can you imagine how differently that whole record would look if it were compiled today? Bird was a great player, probably top-10 all-time. But he's no Lebron.

They don't hear you

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Larry Bird had mental strength, which offsets with Lebrons athleticism.

Based on what?

Bird has at least as many moments of "came up short at the critical time" as Lebron does, and Lebron has FAR more "came up clutch in a huge moment" times to back it up.

If you talk about the 2007 Finals, the 2010 Game 5 in the ECSF, and the 2011 Finals for Lebron...

Then I'm bringing up the 1982 ECF (especially Game 7), the 1983 ECSF, the 1987 Game 6 in the Finals, and the 1988 ECF (especially Game 6) for Bird.

Meanwhile, Lebron has 2007 Game 5 in the ECF, 2008 Game 7 in the ECSF, the 2009 ECF, the 2011 ECF, the 2012 Game 4 in the ECSF, the 2012 Game 6 in the ECF, the 2012 Finals, the 2013 Finals especially games 6 and 7, the 2015 Game 4 in the ECSF, the 2015 ECF, the 2015 Finals, and the 2016 Finals, especially games 5, 6, 7.

Just take the top - how many games in Bird's whole career match Lebron's 45-15-5 when facing elimination against the Celtics in the ECF, the back-to-back 32-10-11 and 37-12-6 when facing elimination against the Spurs in the Finals, or averaging 36-12-10-3-3 in coming back from 3-1 down against a 73-win team like he just did against the Warriors in the Finals?

I'll be waiting.

the only distinctive part about Lebron is his damn athleticism, just because you hit the genetics lottery it doesn't make u the goat, sorry

Lebron has no footwork compared to Kobe.
Lebron has no midrange shot compared to Jordan.
Lebron has no 3 point shot compared to Klay, Curry or Durant.
Lebron has no free throws compared to Larry Bird.

Speaking of Birds eras pace, I'm sure it offsets with Lebrons High usage rate in comparison to bird.

So you invited friends and created a super player out of all of there best attributes to down Bron.

His comparisons cracked me up. And his great attribute for Bird was "free throw shooting".

Lebron has the best combination of athleticism, skills, and basketball IQ we've ever seen. There are other players with Lebron's athleticism, but they can't pass anything like him or finish anything like him. They can't shoot 34% from three-point range or pick apart the defense to take the most efficient shot every time down the court. There are players just as athletic as Bron who still can't guard every player on the court, QB the defense as well as the offense, and time chase-down blocks better than anyone else in history.

Bird doesn't have Lebron's handles, Lebron's finishing ability, Lebron's ability to run the offense (as opposed to just dumping [admittedly good] passes to elite players), Lebron's ability to guard point guards, Lebron's ability to protect the rim, Lebron's ability to play defense in general.

Lebron doesn't have Bird's....free throws and mid-range shooting.

Speaking of Birds eras pace, I'm sure it offsets with Lebrons High usage rate in comparison to bird.

Nope, because the advanced stats take that into account, and Lebron still destroys Bird on advanced stats:

PER: Lebron 27.7, Bird 23.5
Win shares/48: Lebron .240, Bird .203
BPM: Lebron 9.2, Bird 7.2
VORP: Lebron 108.6, Bird 79.7

 

[Draje]

Larry Bird had mental strength, which offsets with Lebrons athleticism.




the only distinctive part about Lebron is his damn athleticism, just because you hit the genetics lottery it doesn't make u the goat, sorry

Lebron has no footwork compared to Kobe.
Lebron has no midrange shot compared to Jordan.
Lebron has no 3 point shot compared to Klay, Curry or Durant.
Lebron has no free throws compared to Larry Bird.



Speaking of Birds eras pace, I'm sure it offsets with Lebrons High usage rate in comparison to bird.

Kobe/Klay/Curry/Durany doesn't have Lebron's slashing ability, durability, finishing ability, touch around the rim, passing, playmaking, or ability to absorb contact. People play OFF of Lebron and he still gets into the lane at will while being Shaq-lite in efficiency near the rim.

So why ignore Lebron's strengths over them?

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Dope videos. But don't forget that you said this and was proven wrong:

And THAT was my point.

How was it proven wrong? Every pass Bird could make, lebron could duplicate but the reverse isn't true. Find me Bird doing a steady diet of this

 

[IllmaticDelta]

There's no way in hell is Bird a better rebounder than Bron. Don't let the 80's high paced games fool you.

yeah, I was going to get to that. Raw stats-numbers all across the board were inflated in the 80's because of the higher pace

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Ya'all can't really be trying to compare 1980s stats to 2000s stats straight-up.

First, he ignored that Lebron taking way more threes depresses his shooting average unfairly. Because of the threes, Lebron's TS% is actually 58.1%, well above Bird's 56.4%.

In '79-'80, when Bird came into the league, the average game had 220 possessions/game (counting shots and turnovers). By the time he retired in 1992 that had dropped to 210.

In '03-'04, when Lebron came into the league, the average game had 190 possessions/game. It dropped to 186 by '06 before rising to 197 now.


Bird's basically getting a 12% bump on every stat just because guys were running up and down the floor and letting the ball fly in the 1980s. The game was a lot more wide open.


By 100 possessions, the numbers are:

Lebron: 36.9 points, 9.7 boards, 9.4 assists, 2.3 steals, 1.1 blocks
Bird: 30.3 points, 12.5 boards, 7.9 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.0 blocks


Add in the better shooting, and Lebron kills Bird on the advanced stats.

PER: Lebron 27.7, Bird 23.5
Win shares/48: Lebron .240, Bird .203
BPM: Lebron 9.2, Bird 7.2
VORP: Lebron 108.6, Bird 79.7



The only thing Bird has is rebounding, and that was still an era where just being tall was enough to get you massive amounts of boards. People go on and on about all the "great big men" of that era, but that's because a 7' man with athleticism was automatically an NBA starter, and there were plenty of centers running around the same height as Bird/Lebron without anything else to commend them. The pool of big men available today is FAR greater than it was in 1979, and they are FAR more athletic and skilled. It's only that their relative competition and what is required of them has gotten far more difficult - you can't be a low-IQ, slow-footed guy hanging out around the basket all day anymore.





Here's what I posted the last time this comparison came up:

First, here are some of Bird's failures:

1982 ECF: Averages 18-14-7 on 41% shooting and Boston loses to Philly in 7. Bird goes 20-9-11 on 7-18 shooting in losing Game 7 in a blowout.

1983 ECSF: Boston is swept out by a Bucks team whose best players are Moncrief, Johnson, Bridgeman, Lanier and Winters. Bird averages 19-12-6 on 44% shooting on the losing end of the sweep.

1987 Finals: Boston loses to LA in the Finals for the second time in three years. Bird goes 6-16 for a 16-9-5 line in the deciding Game 6 loss. Dennis Johnson had 33-10-5 and McHale had 20 and 10 in that game. Worthy had 22 points on 10-16 shooting in only 36 minutes before fouling out. (Worthy averaged 21-5-4 on 52% shooting for the series.)

1988 ECF: Averages 20-12-6 on 35% shooting as the Celtics go down in 6 to the Pistons. Bird goes 16-14-5 on 4-17 shooting in losing Game 6, while Boston was getting lit up by 6'5" SF Adrian Dantley.


Can you imagine the noise against Lebron if he was putting up 7-18, 6-16, and 4-17 performances in elimination game losses in the Finals and ECF? Can you imagine how much heat he would get if he was repeatedly averaging 20ppg or less over entire series? He did that ONCE and was lambasted for it, Bird did both those things at least four different times, while being worse than Lebron on the defensive end as well. (Even in winning Finals, Bird only averaged 15ppg on 42% shooting in 1981 and was 6-18 in the deciding Game 7 in 1984.)


Now, onto the big "victory" moments of Bird's career:

Bird's 1981 Finals, matched up against the Houston Rockets.

Houston was led in the series by Moses Malone, Robert Reid, and a way-past-his-prime Billy Paultz. They were 40-42 that season - that's right, a team with a losing record made the Finals.

Not only that, but Houston made the Finals by beating Kansas City in the WCF...another team with a 40-42 losing record.

The series went 6 games, with the teams trading wins until Boston took game 6. Bird only scored 8, 8, and 12 points in games 3-5, but played a strong all-around game to help lead them to victory.

Yep, that's right, Larry Bird scored in the single digits in back-to-back Finals games and only averaged 9 ppg over the middle three games.

But Boston could still win, because Houston sucked. No one on Houston's entire top-8 shot better than 41.5% for the series. Only three (Malone, Reid, and Paultz) averaged double-figures.

Finals MVP: Cedric Maxwell, 18-10-3 on 57% shooting
Bird: 15-15-7 with 2 steals on 42% shooting
Parish: 15-8-1 with 1 steal and 2 blocks on 51% shooting
Chris Ford and Tiny Archibald also averaged double-figures for Boston, Carr, Robey, Henderson, and McHale were strong off the bench.



Bird's 1984 Finals, matched up against the Los Angeles Lakers.

Two of the most stacked teams of all time faced off in a massively foul-plagued series (with Boston averaging nearly 40 free throws a game to only 24 by the Lakers).

Bird was 8-22, 9-24, 15-20, and 6-18 in the four Boston wins...one fantastic shooting game and three less memorable ones. He also utterly failed to slow down the Lakers stars - Worthy averaged 22ppg on 64% shooting for the series and Magic averaged 18 points, 8 boards, and 14 assists on 56% shooting. Boston was actually outscored by about 20 points over 7 games, but won two close ones and basically beat the Lakers inside, piling up nearly 20 offensive rebounds/game and going to the free throw line over 100 times more than the Lakers over the course of 7 games.

Bird wasn't the deciding factor in any of the most clutch moments in the series.

Game 2 was won by the Celtics by 3 in overtime. Gerald Henderson had a steal-and-score to send the game into overtime (followed by Magic dribbling out the last 15 seconds of the clock rather than attempting a game-winning shot), then Scott Wedman had the game-winning shot in overtime.

Game 4 was won by the Celtics by 4 in overtime. This was the "Tragic Johnson" game, where Magic blew the game in regulation by throwing the ball to Parish and allowing the game to be tied, then missing 2 free throws in overtime. The game also featured a brawl after McHale's closeline on Kurt Rambis which many credit with causing the Lakers to lose their composure and keeping them from putting the series away. Kareem was fouled out early in overtime with the Lakers ahead, many calling it a bad call. Bird made a big go-ahead jumper for Boston, but M.L. Carr sealed the game with a steal-and-score in the final minute.

In Game 7, Bird finished with 20-12-3 on 6-18 shooting. Boston only shot 39.5% in that game to 49% for the Lakers, but had 20 offensive rebounds (8 by Parish alone) and went 43-51 from the free throw line to claim the victory. Maxwell was 14-17 on free throws, DJ was 12-12, and Bird 8-8. Cedric Maxwell stole the ball from Magic with a minute left and the Celtics clinging to a 3-point-lead, and then DJ hit two free throws to seal the victory.

Finals MVP: Larry Bird, 27-14-4 with 2 steals and a block on 48% shooting
Robert Parish: 15-11-1 with 2 steals and 2 blocks on 44% shooting (Parish led the team with 30 offensive boards)
Kevin McHale: 13-6-1 with a block on 46% shooting
Cedric Maxwell: 13-6-3 with a steal on 45% shooting
Dennis Johnson: 18-4-5 with 2 steals on 40% shooting
Gerald Henderson: 12-3-4 with a steal on 48% shooting



Bird's 1986 Finals, matched up against the Houston Rockets.

A different team than the 1981 Rockets that Boston had faced, but still basically "a great center and little else". Houston was led by a 23-year-old Hakeem (long before he'd developed most of his dominant post moves), and surrounded him with Rodney McCray, Ralph Sampson, Robert Reid, and Lewis Loyd. Meanwhile, Boston was still stacked as hell.

Boston started Bird-Parish-McHale-Ainge-Johnson, with Bill Walton as the 6th Man of the Year.
Houston started young Hakeem-Sampson-Reid-McCray-Loyd, with Wiggins as the 6th man.

The series went to 6, but really Boston was the dominant team, outscoring Houston by nearly 40 over 6 games.

Finals MVP: Larry Bird, 24-9.5-9.7 and 3 steals/game on 48% shooting
McHale: 26-9-2 and 3 blocks/game on 57% shooting
Johnson: 17-6-5 and 2 steals/game on 42% shooting
Ainge: 15-4-6 and 3 steals/game on 56% shooting
Parish: 13-7-1 and 2 blocks/game on 42% shooting
Walton: 8-7-2 and 1 block/game on 62% shooting



Can you imagine how differently that whole record would look if it were compiled today? Bird was a great player, probably top-10 all-time. But he's no Lebron.

great post

 

[The_Third_Man]

Ya'all can't really be trying to compare 1980s stats to 2000s stats straight-up.

First, he ignored that Lebron taking way more threes depresses his shooting average unfairly. Because of the threes, Lebron's TS% is actually 58.1%, well above Bird's 56.4%.

In '79-'80, when Bird came into the league, the average game had 220 possessions/game (counting shots and turnovers). By the time he retired in 1992 that had dropped to 210.

In '03-'04, when Lebron came into the league, the average game had 190 possessions/game. It dropped to 186 by '06 before rising to 197 now.


Bird's basically getting a 12% bump on every stat just because guys were running up and down the floor and letting the ball fly in the 1980s. The game was a lot more wide open.


By 100 possessions, the numbers are:

Lebron: 36.9 points, 9.7 boards, 9.4 assists, 2.3 steals, 1.1 blocks
Bird: 30.3 points, 12.5 boards, 7.9 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.0 blocks


Add in the better shooting, and Lebron kills Bird on the advanced stats.

PER: Lebron 27.7, Bird 23.5
Win shares/48: Lebron .240, Bird .203
BPM: Lebron 9.2, Bird 7.2
VORP: Lebron 108.6, Bird 79.7



The only thing Bird has is rebounding, and that was still an era where just being tall was enough to get you massive amounts of boards. People go on and on about all the "great big men" of that era, but that's because a 7' man with athleticism was automatically an NBA starter, and there were plenty of centers running around the same height as Bird/Lebron without anything else to commend them. The pool of big men available today is FAR greater than it was in 1979, and they are FAR more athletic and skilled. It's only that their relative competition and what is required of them has gotten far more difficult - you can't be a low-IQ, slow-footed guy hanging out around the basket all day anymore.





Here's what I posted the last time this comparison came up:

First, here are some of Bird's failures:

1982 ECF: Averages 18-14-7 on 41% shooting and Boston loses to Philly in 7. Bird goes 20-9-11 on 7-18 shooting in losing Game 7 in a blowout.

1983 ECSF: Boston is swept out by a Bucks team whose best players are Moncrief, Johnson, Bridgeman, Lanier and Winters. Bird averages 19-12-6 on 44% shooting on the losing end of the sweep.

1987 Finals: Boston loses to LA in the Finals for the second time in three years. Bird goes 6-16 for a 16-9-5 line in the deciding Game 6 loss. Dennis Johnson had 33-10-5 and McHale had 20 and 10 in that game. Worthy had 22 points on 10-16 shooting in only 36 minutes before fouling out. (Worthy averaged 21-5-4 on 52% shooting for the series.)

1988 ECF: Averages 20-12-6 on 35% shooting as the Celtics go down in 6 to the Pistons. Bird goes 16-14-5 on 4-17 shooting in losing Game 6, while Boston was getting lit up by 6'5" SF Adrian Dantley.


Can you imagine the noise against Lebron if he was putting up 7-18, 6-16, and 4-17 performances in elimination game losses in the Finals and ECF? Can you imagine how much heat he would get if he was repeatedly averaging 20ppg or less over entire series? He did that ONCE and was lambasted for it, Bird did both those things at least four different times, while being worse than Lebron on the defensive end as well. (Even in winning Finals, Bird only averaged 15ppg on 42% shooting in 1981 and was 6-18 in the deciding Game 7 in 1984.)


Now, onto the big "victory" moments of Bird's career:

Bird's 1981 Finals, matched up against the Houston Rockets.

Houston was led in the series by Moses Malone, Robert Reid, and a way-past-his-prime Billy Paultz. They were 40-42 that season - that's right, a team with a losing record made the Finals.

Not only that, but Houston made the Finals by beating Kansas City in the WCF...another team with a 40-42 losing record.

The series went 6 games, with the teams trading wins until Boston took game 6. Bird only scored 8, 8, and 12 points in games 3-5, but played a strong all-around game to help lead them to victory.

Yep, that's right, Larry Bird scored in the single digits in back-to-back Finals games and only averaged 9 ppg over the middle three games.

But Boston could still win, because Houston sucked. No one on Houston's entire top-8 shot better than 41.5% for the series. Only three (Malone, Reid, and Paultz) averaged double-figures.

Finals MVP: Cedric Maxwell, 18-10-3 on 57% shooting
Bird: 15-15-7 with 2 steals on 42% shooting
Parish: 15-8-1 with 1 steal and 2 blocks on 51% shooting
Chris Ford and Tiny Archibald also averaged double-figures for Boston, Carr, Robey, Henderson, and McHale were strong off the bench.



Bird's 1984 Finals, matched up against the Los Angeles Lakers.

Two of the most stacked teams of all time faced off in a massively foul-plagued series (with Boston averaging nearly 40 free throws a game to only 24 by the Lakers).

Bird was 8-22, 9-24, 15-20, and 6-18 in the four Boston wins...one fantastic shooting game and three less memorable ones. He also utterly failed to slow down the Lakers stars - Worthy averaged 22ppg on 64% shooting for the series and Magic averaged 18 points, 8 boards, and 14 assists on 56% shooting. Boston was actually outscored by about 20 points over 7 games, but won two close ones and basically beat the Lakers inside, piling up nearly 20 offensive rebounds/game and going to the free throw line over 100 times more than the Lakers over the course of 7 games.

Bird wasn't the deciding factor in any of the most clutch moments in the series.

Game 2 was won by the Celtics by 3 in overtime. Gerald Henderson had a steal-and-score to send the game into overtime (followed by Magic dribbling out the last 15 seconds of the clock rather than attempting a game-winning shot), then Scott Wedman had the game-winning shot in overtime.

Game 4 was won by the Celtics by 4 in overtime. This was the "Tragic Johnson" game, where Magic blew the game in regulation by throwing the ball to Parish and allowing the game to be tied, then missing 2 free throws in overtime. The game also featured a brawl after McHale's closeline on Kurt Rambis which many credit with causing the Lakers to lose their composure and keeping them from putting the series away. Kareem was fouled out early in overtime with the Lakers ahead, many calling it a bad call. Bird made a big go-ahead jumper for Boston, but M.L. Carr sealed the game with a steal-and-score in the final minute.

In Game 7, Bird finished with 20-12-3 on 6-18 shooting. Boston only shot 39.5% in that game to 49% for the Lakers, but had 20 offensive rebounds (8 by Parish alone) and went 43-51 from the free throw line to claim the victory. Maxwell was 14-17 on free throws, DJ was 12-12, and Bird 8-8. Cedric Maxwell stole the ball from Magic with a minute left and the Celtics clinging to a 3-point-lead, and then DJ hit two free throws to seal the victory.

Finals MVP: Larry Bird, 27-14-4 with 2 steals and a block on 48% shooting
Robert Parish: 15-11-1 with 2 steals and 2 blocks on 44% shooting (Parish led the team with 30 offensive boards)
Kevin McHale: 13-6-1 with a block on 46% shooting
Cedric Maxwell: 13-6-3 with a steal on 45% shooting
Dennis Johnson: 18-4-5 with 2 steals on 40% shooting
Gerald Henderson: 12-3-4 with a steal on 48% shooting



Bird's 1986 Finals, matched up against the Houston Rockets.

A different team than the 1981 Rockets that Boston had faced, but still basically "a great center and little else". Houston was led by a 23-year-old Hakeem (long before he'd developed most of his dominant post moves), and surrounded him with Rodney McCray, Ralph Sampson, Robert Reid, and Lewis Loyd. Meanwhile, Boston was still stacked as hell.

Boston started Bird-Parish-McHale-Ainge-Johnson, with Bill Walton as the 6th Man of the Year.
Houston started young Hakeem-Sampson-Reid-McCray-Loyd, with Wiggins as the 6th man.

The series went to 6, but really Boston was the dominant team, outscoring Houston by nearly 40 over 6 games.

Finals MVP: Larry Bird, 24-9.5-9.7 and 3 steals/game on 48% shooting
McHale: 26-9-2 and 3 blocks/game on 57% shooting
Johnson: 17-6-5 and 2 steals/game on 42% shooting
Ainge: 15-4-6 and 3 steals/game on 56% shooting
Parish: 13-7-1 and 2 blocks/game on 42% shooting
Walton: 8-7-2 and 1 block/game on 62% shooting



Can you imagine how differently that whole record would look if it were compiled today? Bird was a great player, probably top-10 all-time. But he's no Lebron.

wow

 

[Mantis Toboggan M.D.]

wow

Dankster should be in the running for poster of the year with how well he stays composed, how regularly he breaks the game down, and for how thoroughly he is willing to examine the game regardless of era with an objective opinion.

 

[Rigby.]

Ya'all can't really be trying to compare 1980s stats to 2000s stats straight-up.

First, he ignored that Lebron taking way more threes depresses his shooting average unfairly. Because of the threes, Lebron's TS% is actually 58.1%, well above Bird's 56.4%.

In '79-'80, when Bird came into the league, the average game had 220 possessions/game (counting shots and turnovers). By the time he retired in 1992 that had dropped to 210.

In '03-'04, when Lebron came into the league, the average game had 190 possessions/game. It dropped to 186 by '06 before rising to 197 now.


Bird's basically getting a 12% bump on every stat just because guys were running up and down the floor and letting the ball fly in the 1980s. The game was a lot more wide open.


By 100 possessions, the numbers are:

Lebron: 36.9 points, 9.7 boards, 9.4 assists, 2.3 steals, 1.1 blocks
Bird: 30.3 points, 12.5 boards, 7.9 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.0 blocks


Add in the better shooting, and Lebron kills Bird on the advanced stats.

PER: Lebron 27.7, Bird 23.5
Win shares/48: Lebron .240, Bird .203
BPM: Lebron 9.2, Bird 7.2
VORP: Lebron 108.6, Bird 79.7



The only thing Bird has is rebounding, and that was still an era where just being tall was enough to get you massive amounts of boards. People go on and on about all the "great big men" of that era, but that's because a 7' man with athleticism was automatically an NBA starter, and there were plenty of centers running around the same height as Bird/Lebron without anything else to commend them. The pool of big men available today is FAR greater than it was in 1979, and they are FAR more athletic and skilled. It's only that their relative competition and what is required of them has gotten far more difficult - you can't be a low-IQ, slow-footed guy hanging out around the basket all day anymore.





Here's what I posted the last time this comparison came up:

First, here are some of Bird's failures:

1982 ECF: Averages 18-14-7 on 41% shooting and Boston loses to Philly in 7. Bird goes 20-9-11 on 7-18 shooting in losing Game 7 in a blowout.

1983 ECSF: Boston is swept out by a Bucks team whose best players are Moncrief, Johnson, Bridgeman, Lanier and Winters. Bird averages 19-12-6 on 44% shooting on the losing end of the sweep.

1987 Finals: Boston loses to LA in the Finals for the second time in three years. Bird goes 6-16 for a 16-9-5 line in the deciding Game 6 loss. Dennis Johnson had 33-10-5 and McHale had 20 and 10 in that game. Worthy had 22 points on 10-16 shooting in only 36 minutes before fouling out. (Worthy averaged 21-5-4 on 52% shooting for the series.)

1988 ECF: Averages 20-12-6 on 35% shooting as the Celtics go down in 6 to the Pistons. Bird goes 16-14-5 on 4-17 shooting in losing Game 6, while Boston was getting lit up by 6'5" SF Adrian Dantley.


Can you imagine the noise against Lebron if he was putting up 7-18, 6-16, and 4-17 performances in elimination game losses in the Finals and ECF? Can you imagine how much heat he would get if he was repeatedly averaging 20ppg or less over entire series? He did that ONCE and was lambasted for it, Bird did both those things at least four different times, while being worse than Lebron on the defensive end as well. (Even in winning Finals, Bird only averaged 15ppg on 42% shooting in 1981 and was 6-18 in the deciding Game 7 in 1984.)


Now, onto the big "victory" moments of Bird's career:

Bird's 1981 Finals, matched up against the Houston Rockets.

Houston was led in the series by Moses Malone, Robert Reid, and a way-past-his-prime Billy Paultz. They were 40-42 that season - that's right, a team with a losing record made the Finals.

Not only that, but Houston made the Finals by beating Kansas City in the WCF...another team with a 40-42 losing record.

The series went 6 games, with the teams trading wins until Boston took game 6. Bird only scored 8, 8, and 12 points in games 3-5, but played a strong all-around game to help lead them to victory.

Yep, that's right, Larry Bird scored in the single digits in back-to-back Finals games and only averaged 9 ppg over the middle three games.

But Boston could still win, because Houston sucked. No one on Houston's entire top-8 shot better than 41.5% for the series. Only three (Malone, Reid, and Paultz) averaged double-figures.

Finals MVP: Cedric Maxwell, 18-10-3 on 57% shooting
Bird: 15-15-7 with 2 steals on 42% shooting
Parish: 15-8-1 with 1 steal and 2 blocks on 51% shooting
Chris Ford and Tiny Archibald also averaged double-figures for Boston, Carr, Robey, Henderson, and McHale were strong off the bench.



Bird's 1984 Finals, matched up against the Los Angeles Lakers.

Two of the most stacked teams of all time faced off in a massively foul-plagued series (with Boston averaging nearly 40 free throws a game to only 24 by the Lakers).

Bird was 8-22, 9-24, 15-20, and 6-18 in the four Boston wins...one fantastic shooting game and three less memorable ones. He also utterly failed to slow down the Lakers stars - Worthy averaged 22ppg on 64% shooting for the series and Magic averaged 18 points, 8 boards, and 14 assists on 56% shooting. Boston was actually outscored by about 20 points over 7 games, but won two close ones and basically beat the Lakers inside, piling up nearly 20 offensive rebounds/game and going to the free throw line over 100 times more than the Lakers over the course of 7 games.

Bird wasn't the deciding factor in any of the most clutch moments in the series.

Game 2 was won by the Celtics by 3 in overtime. Gerald Henderson had a steal-and-score to send the game into overtime (followed by Magic dribbling out the last 15 seconds of the clock rather than attempting a game-winning shot), then Scott Wedman had the game-winning shot in overtime.

Game 4 was won by the Celtics by 4 in overtime. This was the "Tragic Johnson" game, where Magic blew the game in regulation by throwing the ball to Parish and allowing the game to be tied, then missing 2 free throws in overtime. The game also featured a brawl after McHale's closeline on Kurt Rambis which many credit with causing the Lakers to lose their composure and keeping them from putting the series away. Kareem was fouled out early in overtime with the Lakers ahead, many calling it a bad call. Bird made a big go-ahead jumper for Boston, but M.L. Carr sealed the game with a steal-and-score in the final minute.

In Game 7, Bird finished with 20-12-3 on 6-18 shooting. Boston only shot 39.5% in that game to 49% for the Lakers, but had 20 offensive rebounds (8 by Parish alone) and went 43-51 from the free throw line to claim the victory. Maxwell was 14-17 on free throws, DJ was 12-12, and Bird 8-8. Cedric Maxwell stole the ball from Magic with a minute left and the Celtics clinging to a 3-point-lead, and then DJ hit two free throws to seal the victory.

Finals MVP: Larry Bird, 27-14-4 with 2 steals and a block on 48% shooting
Robert Parish: 15-11-1 with 2 steals and 2 blocks on 44% shooting (Parish led the team with 30 offensive boards)
Kevin McHale: 13-6-1 with a block on 46% shooting
Cedric Maxwell: 13-6-3 with a steal on 45% shooting
Dennis Johnson: 18-4-5 with 2 steals on 40% shooting
Gerald Henderson: 12-3-4 with a steal on 48% shooting



Bird's 1986 Finals, matched up against the Houston Rockets.

A different team than the 1981 Rockets that Boston had faced, but still basically "a great center and little else". Houston was led by a 23-year-old Hakeem (long before he'd developed most of his dominant post moves), and surrounded him with Rodney McCray, Ralph Sampson, Robert Reid, and Lewis Loyd. Meanwhile, Boston was still stacked as hell.

Boston started Bird-Parish-McHale-Ainge-Johnson, with Bill Walton as the 6th Man of the Year.
Houston started young Hakeem-Sampson-Reid-McCray-Loyd, with Wiggins as the 6th man.

The series went to 6, but really Boston was the dominant team, outscoring Houston by nearly 40 over 6 games.

Finals MVP: Larry Bird, 24-9.5-9.7 and 3 steals/game on 48% shooting
McHale: 26-9-2 and 3 blocks/game on 57% shooting
Johnson: 17-6-5 and 2 steals/game on 42% shooting
Ainge: 15-4-6 and 3 steals/game on 56% shooting
Parish: 13-7-1 and 2 blocks/game on 42% shooting
Walton: 8-7-2 and 1 block/game on 62% shooting



Can you imagine how differently that whole record would look if it were compiled today? Bird was a great player, probably top-10 all-time. But he's no Lebron.

its over

 

[Rigby.]

Bird got those rebounds when the NBA had real centers and power forwards. Don't let today's lack of big men fool you into thinking that Lebron was a better rebounder than Bird.

Today's lack of big men are probably more skilled and substantially more ahtletically gifted than most 80s big men

If you posted this in the 90s or probably even pre 80s you would be righter, but there's like a handful what you're saying applies to, its not like the entire league top to bottom was elite at that position

 

[IllmaticDelta]

I disagree, Bird can make any pass that Lebron has, let's not exaggerate, only Magic is in that class, not Lebron. Also, Bird made the most with less (athletic wise) Lebron dominates the ball and is a willing passer. Meanwhile, Bird does NOT dominate the ball and he still has the same amount of assists.

no he cant

noone does these one handed zip/cross court passes like Lebron

 

[Goat poster]

LeBron is a better PASSER, REBOUNDER, and SCORER (not shooter though)

OP should be banned for trolling

Especially for starting a fake LeBron "All Lives Matter" thread.....

 

[Professor Emeritus]

They don't hear you

great post

wow

Dankster should be in the running for poster of the year with how well he stays composed, how regularly he breaks the game down, and for how thoroughly he is willing to examine the game regardless of era with an objective opinion.

its over

Well, damn. Thank you all.

 

[Donald Trumps Twitter]

Nigggas writing stories in this bytch



Y'all some gay ass soft ass NBA fans, bandwagon ass hoes.


Y'all cape for Lebron like he's the second coming of Jesus Christ


One question for u Lebron stans, what was your favorite team/player before Lebron



Bandwagon ass hoes