He Who Posts Well
Veteran
It was breh
For people trying to put Curry, Lebron, Kobe on MJ's level all I have to do is sum it up with..
- Thread starter Ethnic Vagina Finder
- Start date
Wanted to give you a thoughtful response and couldn't from work earlier fyi
I don't/didn't want to take away from Iggys FMVP, it was deserved, even though I would have voted for Steph if I had a vote. Iggy changed that series defensively and was opportunistic offensively since the Cavs basically let him eat without checking him. Iggy was able to get his buckets more so because Steph had the defense bent to allow others to be open.
I don't think Pippen is in the conversation for '98 at all tbh. That was Mike, especially with the 45 to close to series. The 54 point stinker from the Jazz can't be attributed to any single player. I wouldn't argue against you if you said Pippen had the strongest individual defensive impact, but that was a product of the teams as a whole. You can't put Pippens defensive performance in that series alongside Iggy largely locking up a top 5 player of all time over the course of a series.
Now, this is when you can turn over to the 91 series with Pippen getting the Magic assignment. First off, the Bulls were going to stomp them that series regardless of Pippen being the primary defender on Magic. They were just the better team straight up that series and it wasn't reliant on Pippen checking Magic. I don't want to call Pippens defense on Magic overrated, because it wasn't, but what's somewhat overrated here is the idea that Pippen switching to Magic was some turning point in the series. It was just a logical decision to make and allow Mike to maximize his offense and not expend so much on defense. It really should have been decided before the series started IMO. Mike was insanely dynamic that series, both as a playmaker and a scorer. Again, I don't think Pippens defense puts him into the conversation for FMVP. Mike was an offensive dynamo that series, beyond what Steph did against the Cavs.
Iggy winning FMVP was an outlier. It was a product of the narratives of that series. Steph had some struggles that were being documented, fair or not. Before Iggy was inserted into the starting lineup, Bron was being heavily considered as the FMVP, win or lose. Iggys emergence as the FMVP was moreso a byproduct of Kerr making a great and timely coaching decision. Not to take away from Iggys production, but the timing of Iggy going into the starting lineup, and the Warriors taking over the series helped catapult Iggy to FMVP
People tried to call me crazy when I said Jordan was averaging 45 points...
I was off by 2
I was off by 2
The thing is, if we are honest with ourselves, another Warrior has nearly every record sewn up regarding single season dominance. ESPN uses PER to determine this and Wilt is still at the top with his block and steal numbers not even being recorded (and Wilt was a beast on both ends of the floor). He is having one of the greatest offensive seasons ever but to say he is having the greatest individual season ever.
True on Wilt's PER. It's pretty hard to compare his production across eras though and the reason no one else has been able to come remotely close to his '62 campaign has less to do with the talent gap between him and others (Lets say Shaq for instance), and more to do with league circumstances back then.
I'm not on the train of Curry having the greatest year ever, but he's somewhere in the conversation for greatest peaks ever. As of now I'd take him over '87 Magic which is saying a lot. I do wish people would compare Steph to GOAT's at his own position first rather than going straight to Michael.
Mantis Toboggan M.D.
Drink wolf cola
In 86? I mean it was only three games, but you were not far off
Of course they're not (I was barely walking), but I'm sure people have revisited that postseason series after it took place.Nobody on here is really old enough to remember 91, but you're not going with the #2 scorer for MVP in a 5 game "sweep". Jordan dropped 31 6 and 11 on 55% shooting. NOBODY thinks Pip had any argument for FMVP.
First of all, I'm not saying that Pippen deserved it over Jordan. What I was insinuating/stating in my original post regarding this matter was that Pippen had just as much of a case as Iggy did - yet here we in 2016 referencing Jordan's and Pippen's box scores (as reason for why Jordan deserved it) without doing the same when it comes to Curry's and Iggy's. Anybody with any sense can tell you that both Jordan and Curry were definitively the best and most important players in those respective Finals.
Not only are we not applying the same logic to Curry (that we're doing for Jordan), but we've got dudes on this board who believe Iggy carried Curry. Can you imagine if anybody would even suggest that Pippen carried Jordan during those Finals? The double standard here is mind-blowing. I get it and everything but it still doesn't take away from the impact of folk choosing what they want to see, rather than what's actually there.
I re-watched the series prior to the start of this season. There's definitely parallels between Pippen's performance and Iggy's performance last season (notably on defense), especially over the last four games. Pippen was simply destructive on defensive as any perimeter player could be in those games. He got away with a lot of contact, but he was relentless on just about every single player on the floor.
You can make a serious argument that Jordan wouldn't have won in '91 and '98 too. Still doesn't take away from the fact that Jordan and Curry were the most impactful players. Iggy did a great job on LeBron, but he had a lot of help and the fact that LeBron was abysmal from outside the paint during the entire playoffs speaks more about his regression rather than how potent Iggy's defense was. This is even mentioning the fact that Drayond was BY FAR the best defensive player in that series. Half the reason that small ball lineup worked was because he could play the 5 and protect the rim. I don't know if you've seen this or not -Last year Bron was the main reason Cavs won two games and Iggy was the main reason he shot 8% outside of the paint. I think you can make a serious argument that the Warriors wouldn't have won if Iggy didn't play and that they still could've won if Steph didn't. Steph wasn't bad just not great by his standards, 44% from the field 38% from 3. Finals was probably his worst series in the playoffs.
"81.5 percent of Iguodala’s scores versus Cleveland were assisted. The nearest defender on all but nine of his 37 made field goals was Mozgov, Thompson or 34-year-old James Jones."
Yeah Curry didn't have his greatest series, but not only did he average 10 more points than any other Warriors player and more assists, but the amount of points and open looks he generated for his team is beyond what any box score could tell you. He was trapped, double teamed and forced into giving up the ball as soon as he approached the arc all throughout that series, Iggy and the others were the benefactors of this; either having wide open shots or driving lanes with the Cavs defense centered around limiting Curry. It took them until Game 4 before they started capitalizing on this, as during the first three games the role players were either to scared to shoot (namely Draymond) and others were just simply missing open looks.
If you went over that series with a fine-toothed comb, I don't see how anyone could even suggest that Curry didn't have the most impact for the Warriors.
Pretty much agree with most of what you said. I mean what I'm really trying to highlight in all of this is people's contradictory standards [using box scores] when it comes to talking about Iggy's role/impact in the Finals, and not doing the same for Pippen. It boggles one's mind how we either accept (which is my stance), agree, or push the notion further of Iggy's importance over Curry, yet screw our faces up at even the thought of Pippen having a case.
Pippen is my all time favorite player but even I know better then to say he deserved any mvp trophy over Jordan. This is the first time I have ever seen anyone say that. thecoli.com for you sometimes.Nobody is saying Pippen deserved a FMVP trophy over Jordan.
GIVE KOBE PIPPEN FOR THE DURATION OF HIS PRIME N SEE WHAT HAPPENS
Then I guess I misunderstood your argument for pippen. You're not going to have a hard time convincing me of pippens greatness but to even say he had a case at mvp is very laughable. I was old enough to know what was going on in all those title runs. I used to record them on vhs and rewatch them tapes. At the time it was great being a bulls fan so I was a little obsessed with them.
Then it's just as laughable as Iggy winning the FMVP.
Mantis Toboggan M.D.
Drink wolf cola
Are you actually suggesting you'd be better or with him than with Shaq?
I think there's a distinction between "best" and "most important" or "most valuable". Steph was unarguably Golden State's best player, but definitely more subjective when you talk most valuable, particularly in that series/matchup.
Agreed, that's just silly.
91, wasn't Worthy hurt? That was an old Lakers team, I think MJ would've still beat them.
98 yeah, but you can't make a serious argument the Pip could've won either of those series without Jordan.
Strongly disagree with this. Iggy defends Bron better than anybody in the league. Without him Bron might have dropped 40ppg. He was the only Cav who could even get to the rim, so Green's rim protection was relatively unimportant and he didn't have to do anything but box out when Thompson was on the floor because he was pretty much zero offensive threat.
Yeah, the Cavs basically had to concede open shots to Iggy, but if he doesn't shoot 50% from the field and 40% from 3 they would've been in trouble. No doubt Steph's greatness opened the door for that, but he still had to perform.
Good point, but that's kind of abstract when you talk about mvp of a series. Everybody knows how Steph makes everyone around him better simply by being on the court.Yeah Curry didn't have his greatest series, but not only did he average 10 more points than any other Warriors player and more assists, but the amount of points and open looks he generated for his team is beyond what any box score could tell you. He was trapped, double teamed and forced into giving up the ball as soon as he approached the arc all throughout that series, Iggy and the others were the benefactors of this; either having wide open shots or driving lanes with the Cavs defense centered around limiting Curry. It took them until Game 4 before they started capitalizing on this, as during the first three games the role players were either to scared to shoot (namely Draymond) and others were just simply missing open looks.
If you went over that series with a fine-toothed comb, I don't see how anyone could even suggest that Curry didn't have the most impact for the Warriors.
Granted a lot of this is just circumstantial, if Warriors beat a healthy Cavs team Steph is obviously going to be MVP, but they simply didn't need him to be Steph against a short-handed Cavs team. I mean its not like the coli GSW hate convention voted for Finals MVP, it was the same media that LOVES Steph.
One thing we do agree on, is that this thread while true is just a Steph/GSW hate thread, main reason I didn't post in here until now.
READ AGAIN .. DURATION OF PRIME. ENTIRE PRIME W PIPPEN >>>> DEVELOPMENT YEARS+ENTERING PRIME YEARS W SHAQ