Future - "Reasonable Doubt was not hot when it dropped"

[IllmaticDelta]

Lmao nikka please.
Means nothing

"name a rapper that I ain't influence"

Tupac ends his third and final verse with a venomous tirade against New York rapper NaS, who he accuses of various hip hop crimes. According to Tupac, NaS is an impostor who stole rap legend Rakim's lyrical style ("you heard 'My Melody' . . . tryin' to sound like Rakim") and plagiarized Tupac's life story ("read about my life in the papers . . . now you want to live my life"). Behind this public hatred was a private admiration. Tupac was a huge fan of NaS' debut album, Illmatic, and was inspired to write "Me and My Girlfriend" after hearing NaS' "I Gave You Power," an anthropomorphic first-person narrative told through the "eyes" of a handgun. He made peace with NaS in New York's Bryant Park on September 4, 1996 and even listened to NaS' sophomore album, It Was Written, as he made his fateful trip to Las Vegas for the Tyson-Seldon fight three days later. According to Suge Knight, Tupac intended to remove the NaS disses from the Makaveli album but died before he could do so. In a magazine interview after Tupac's death, NaS admitted crying when he first heard "Against All Odds."

11.2 K-THORO FM: Amazing Breakdown of "Against All Oddz" (NEW INFO)

and...

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dream hampton on how pac felt about illmatic:

'Hampton credits Illmatic with providing a common artistic ground for rappers on the West Coast and East Coast rap scenes. In the 2009 essay "Born Alone, Die Alone," she recounts the album's impact on West Coast artist, Tupac Shakur. While working as a journalist for The Source in 1994, Hampton covered three court cases involving Tupac. Around this time, she received an advance-copy of Illmatic and immediately dubbed a cassette version for Tupac, who became "an instant convert" of the album. The next day, she writes, Tupac "arrived in his assigned courtroom blasting Illmatic so loudly that the bailiff yelled at him to turn it off before the judge took his seat on the bench.'

Despite these regional differences, Hampton credits Illmatic with providing a common artistic ground for rappers on the West Coast and East Coast rap scenes. In the 2009 essay "Born Alone, Die Alone," she recounts the album's impact on West Coast artist, Tupac Shakur.[108] While working as a journalist for The Source in 1994, Hampton covered three court cases involving Tupac. Around this time, she received an advance-copy of Illmatic and immediately dubbed a cassette version for Tupac, who became "an instant convert" of the album. The next day, she writes, Tupac "arrived in his assigned courtroom blasting Illmatic so loudly that the bailiff yelled at him to turn it off before the judge took his seat on the bench." In her essay, Hampton implies that Nas' lyricism might have influenced Tupac's acclaimed album, Me Against the World, which was recorded that same year.[108]

 

[Tom Foolery]

1. So you're saying rappers were 1/2 things,lol yeaaaaaa
When you say old rappers like (Rakim, BDK, De la soul, ATCQ Public Enemy etc.) werent cutting it anymore,what exactly do you mean? What were they failing to do?

2.The east needed something to combat the west coast,why? What was the west coast doing that needed to be countered?

3. Illmatic was far from perfect. Perfect album with high praise and regular video rotation, dont flop like that. All that he was doing had been done before by rakim,no?
What was Nas doing on illmatic that Rakim wasn't already doing?
As far as shifting styles,the year illmatic dropped we still had stylish rappers coming out and outselling him. Old dirty went gold in half the time Nas did,in the same era. Method was outselling him. Other stylish artist like Da brat,coolio, outkast and Bone destroyed him too. So what shift?

4.Nas WAS JUST A not quite as positive Rakim. That's all he had in 1994.


5. No one was arguing how much east coast took to it,we said it meant little on a national scale. Which is true.

You can't say it was a new standard,when biggie was the guy to take over. Not only did he take over. Nas flopped and took to a bad boy formula to finally become a star. Puff and biggie were laying the blueprint. Nas and jay followed

1. The old rappers were not cutting it in terms of bring something new to the table, mostly because of gansta rap. The East needed to evolve, but it wasn't going to come from the old schoolers. Even to this day, Rakim, BDK, De la soul, ATCQ Public Enemy etc. or pretty much the same.

2. West Coast was dominating. Gansta rap, Graphic lyrics and 70's/80's funk groves was at the forefront. The old schoolers are not countering this.

3a. Rakim is the God. Everything leads back to him. But this was not the 80's anymore. There was a whole new scene (a transition period if you will) in the early 90's. This is why Nas was the second coming of Rakim. Like Rakim, he opened every ones eyes and guided them to a new style.
3b. These are a bunch of new schoolers that outsold Nas, but they had no influence. ODB, Method man, Brat, Outkast, Coolio, Bone didn't change anything on any scene. In fact, the last few of them just took other peoples style and cashed on it.

 

[Still Benefited]

00000000000000000000000000000184

1. The old rappers were not cutting it in terms of bring something new to the table, mostly because of gansta rap. The East needed to evolve, but it wasn't going to come from the old schoolers. Even to this day, Rakim, BDK, De la soul, ATCQ Public Enemy etc. or pretty much the same.

2. West Coast was dominating. Gansta rap, Graphic lyrics and 70's/80's funk groves was at the forefront. The old schoolers are not countering this.

3a. Rakim is the God. Everything leads back to him. But this was not the 80's anymore. There was a whole new scene (a transition period if you will) in the early 90's. This is why Nas was the second coming of Rakim. Like Rakim, he opened every ones eyes and guided them to a new style.
3b. These are a bunch of new schoolers that outsold Nas, but they had no influence. ODB, Method man, Brat, Outkast, Coolio, Bone didn't change anything on any scene. In fact, the last few of them just took other peoples style and cashed on it.

Method Man had no influence?

Outkast had no influence?

Wonder if I post a bunch of random articles with nikkas praising Outkast for how influential they were in hindsight would it matter

Wonder if I post random east coast nikkas saying they was listening to Bone would it matter?

 

[IllmaticDelta]

nikka did u even read the thread? Only thing he took from Bad Boy was the fact he had to polish his sound more. Album is NOT stylistically like any Bad Boy album at the time. And who cares what nikka's from westbumblefukk south was thinkin. U nikka's don't get it. I been said casuals prolly didn't know Illmatic. But for the heads. Illmatic was VERY important. And that shyt spread like wildfire in the industry. Yall nikkas makin shyt up based on how big a deal the shyt was in yo house. This thread was about Jay Z and u nikkas came in here making it about Nas. Fact is. Go ahead. Call Nas Illmatic a big deal locally. Say what u want. Reasonable Doubt wasn't even THAT. shyt was just another dope album. Regardless of what u feel expectations were fulfilled or not with Illmatic. There was NO expectations for Reasonable Doubt. Not even locally. What u gonna tell me it was now?. nikka from the south who wasn't here? nikka's have ZERO credentials to say the opposite of what every artist, publication, all of that shyt was sayin at the time. nikka's talking that Snoop shyt. But guess what. SNOOP knew who Nas was cause of Illmatic. Nas went to visit LA when Illmatic was out. Snoop immediately knew who it was. U nikka's is ALL exposing yall selves. Thinking that hindsight numbers tell the whole story.

facts

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Dana Dane: "Illmatic" Passed Baton From Rakims & Big Daddy Kanes To Nas, Biggie, Jay Z

Dana Dane earned his fame in the 1980s as one of Rap’s preeminent storytellers.

On the eve of the 20-year anniversary of Nas’ Illmatic, the Brooklyn, New York rapper says that Nas’ debut album was a landmark moment in the evolution of Rap storytelling.

“As I think back to that album, and all of the acclaim that he got as it came out, it felt like it was the passing on of the baton for the most part from the Rakims and the Big Daddy Kane’s and that type of thing,” Dana Dane says in an exclusive interview with HipHopDX. “It was a new wave of dope lyricists coming with Nas, Biggie, Jay Z, and that type of thing. I used to listen to that album on rotation too because of the lyrics. From my standpoint, and me building my career, it was really based on the story-rhyme, and from right off the bat I could see that. I think Nas is one of the greatest story-tellers.”

Dana Dane, whose “Cinderfella Dana Dane” and “Nightmares” are two of the 1980s most revered story-based rap songs, says that “One Love” is one of his favorite story-driven songs on Illmatic.

“You hear that really intense storytelling that he got in him,” Dana Dane says. “I think it set up a lot of parallels in what Eminem does, in what Biggie does. Jay-Z is more of an abstract storyteller. He’s not as deep into it. I guess the closest to me, in terms of chronological storytelling, that he did for me was ’99 Problems.’ But Nas, with ‘Black Girl Lost’ and all those types of stories, man, just moving away from Illmatic, it was just all really about the stories and really getting his vision out. From a standpoint of when Illmatic came out, I really think it changed the landscape again for Hip Hop.”

Dana Dane says Illmatic gave rappers a noteworthy backdrop from which to explore their creativity.

“It just gave a vibe that the lyricists would always have a foundation to grow from,” he says. “It wasn’t just going to be about the beats and the hooks. It was really going to be about the intense lyrical aspects of what he had to offer the game. And the beats were incredible too, though. The beats were from Large Professor and Q-Tip, they really put it in on those tracks, man. Everything that he kicked on that album was really embraced by Hip Hop on a whole different level. Ten years was incredible, when he did the 10-year anniversary people made a big hooplah, and that seems like yesterday. Now we’re at the 20-year anniversary and I know they’re going to go even crazier about that because not too many albums have come around and been that significant since Illmatic.”

Dana Dane: "Illmatic" Passed Baton From Rakims & Big Daddy Kanes To Nas, Biggie, Jay Z

 

[Tom Foolery]

00000000000000000000000000000184


Method Man had no influence?

Outkast had no influence?

Wonder if I post a bunch of random articles with nikkas praising Outkast for how influential they were in hindsight would it matter

Wonder if I post random east coast nikkas saying they was listening to Bone would it matter?

Show me how they influenced the East Coast scene from the early to mid 90's.

 

[Still Benefited]

I don't got all day for trolls.If you don't have a statement or a counter position just admit defeat. Asking me questions is just your way of trying to stumble into something.

1. You tell me. If you don't know just say so.

2. Again, You got all the answers so you tell me. If you don't know just say so.

3. This is were you have to admit you don't know about this era. Rakim was on the decline in the early 90's.All the 80's MC rappers tried to reinvent themselves or went the Hip-Hop purist route like KRS-ONE. This time period is one that most people don't understand, that's why guys like you can't wrap you head around Illmatic. This is a separate discussion. Everything else needs to be cleared up before I go further.

4. I have not clue what you are trying to saying to be honest. I hope #3 answers this.

5. Nation wide? This is early 90's Hip-Hop. Everything was East or West. Nothing else was in the equation during this time.

Also keep in mind Nas' single dropped in '92 so everyone got a taste of what was coming.
All this badboy/Biggie stuff ties into #3. If you are cool on 1,2,4,5 I'll answer #3 in full.

nikka did u even read the thread? Only thing he took from Bad Boy was the fact he had to polish his sound more. Album is NOT stylistically like any Bad Boy album at the time. And who cares what nikka's from westbumblefukk south was thinkin. U nikka's don't get it. I been said casuals prolly didn't know Illmatic. But for the heads. Illmatic was VERY important. And that shyt spread like wildfire in the industry. Yall nikkas makin shyt up based on how big a deal the shyt was in yo house. This thread was about Jay Z and u nikkas came in here making it about Nas. Fact is. Go ahead. Call Nas Illmatic a big deal locally. Say what u want. Reasonable Doubt wasn't even THAT. shyt was just another dope album. Regardless of what u feel expectations were fulfilled or not with Illmatic. There was NO expectations for Reasonable Doubt. Not even locally. What u gonna tell me it was now?. nikka from the south who wasn't here? nikka's have ZERO credentials to say the opposite of what every artist, publication, all of that shyt was sayin at the time. nikka's talking that Snoop shyt. But guess what. SNOOP knew who Nas was cause of Illmatic. Nas went to visit LA when Illmatic was out. Snoop immediately knew who it was. U nikka's is ALL exposing yall selves. Thinking that hindsight numbers tell the whole story.

These are the nikkas yall want to rewrite history?

These are the nikkas thats supposed to tell us who was checking for what,when they not even taking count outside of the east coast?no wonder yall dont know wtf yall talking about....yall only taking into consideration nikkas who will tell you what you want to hear

Funny how now "it aint bout the casuals",when its been plenty of people in here claiming only so called "real heads" had RD too....sounds like a large portion of the same group of people had RD and Illmatic,yet supposedly one was being checked for waaay more than the other.

at thinking Future was talking about "real heads:"as if only real heads was listening to Pac and Biggie when Jay dropped RD

 

[Still Benefited]

Show me how they influenced the East Coast scene from the early to mid 90's.

[1] This success was driven by its two singles, "Bring the Pain" and "I'll Be There for You/You're All I Need to Get By". The album has since been hailed by several music critics as a classic hip hop album. Its success is matched by its influence as a major piece in the East coast hip hop renaissance.

Made more of a impact than Nas,had the critics and grammy nominations,sounds like it did all the same shyt yall saying Nas did and more,except for you heard right?it had the success to match its influence in the east coast rennasiance.

Also Your All I Need was very influential in rap/female rnb love duets due to the success and critical acclaim of that song

Plus Id take Meth over Nas personally based on originality,having a far better voice and delivery



Far as Outkast,they was hot back before NY was okay with biting the hell out of atlanta nikkas.


Far as Outkast the you saidnyourself east coast wasnt popping back then,so who the hell would be catering to yall

Sounded funky enough to fit in and ride off that west coast wave though,and they couldnt influence the west cuz we already had nikkas that sounded like them

They had influence in the south though,but you already said you dont give a shyt about that....soooo,whats more to be said

 

[bigbadbossup2012]

1. The old rappers were not cutting it in terms of bring something new to the table, mostly because of gansta rap. The East needed to evolve, but it wasn't going to come from the old schoolers. Even to this day, Rakim, BDK, De la soul, ATCQ Public Enemy etc. or pretty much the same.

2. West Coast was dominating. Gansta rap, Graphic lyrics and 70's/80's funk groves was at the forefront. The old schoolers are not countering this.

3a. Rakim is the God. Everything leads back to him. But this was not the 80's anymore. There was a whole new scene (a transition period if you will) in the early 90's. This is why Nas was the second coming of Rakim. Like Rakim, he opened every ones eyes and guided them to a new style.
3b. These are a bunch of new schoolers that outsold Nas, but they had no influence. ODB, Method man, Brat, Outkast, Coolio, Bone didn't change anything on any scene. In fact, the last few of them just took other peoples style and cashed on it.

1.What did Nas bring that was new?

2. When you say west coast funk grooves were at the forefront and dominating,what do you mean? How were they dominating,like in what way?

3a. What was new about Nasir's style? So what it wasnt the 80's anymore.Are you implying it was cool to jack rakim's style cause it was no longer the 80's? If not,what does that statement mean?
3b. Lmao,absolute Nonsense. 1st off, Nas changed what?
When Nas was hurting cause he flopped,Method Man was flourishing. Meanwhile nas had to change his approach just to get some traction.
.
You said Nas (illmatic era) was the reason,nikkas wasnt rhyming in "over the top styles anymore" but I clearly pointed out two artists with defined styles (from the east) whom debuts dropped right after his,yet were selling faster than illmatic and whom they influenced or not doesnt change that . Especially when Nasir's style was so ineffective that he was forced to switch up immediately just to survive in hiphop. In 1996 The Fugees and Busta were both very style influenced acts. And that's just the east. It took a member of a style based group to help put nas over from flop-ville to hitsville.
On a nationwide level downplaying the influence of Bone and Outkast is laughable.
Till this day there are multiple stars across the country with stand out styles that are very successful.
And Nas is as guilty of cashing in on another person's style as anyone you're attempting to get at.
Being like nas was not a key for NY coming back,being like biggie was.
Jay
Nas
Pun

All took that biggie approach to success.

 

[spliz]

^^^^^ and this is why it's never wise to argue with fools ladies and gentlemen. It's pointless. No matter the proof. These nikkas creating their own reality. It does not matter the proof provided. It will be dismissed. And I could bet money the people tryna school these cats such as @Tom Foolery are older than them.

 

[Tom Foolery]

[1] This success was driven by its two singles, "Bring the Pain" and "I'll Be There for You/You're All I Need to Get By". The album has since been hailed by several music critics as a classic hip hop album. Its success is matched by its influence as a major piece in the East coast hip hop renaissance.

Made more of a impact than Nas,had the critics and grammy nominations,sounds like it did all the same shyt yall saying Nas did and more,except for you heard right?it had the success to match its influence in the east coast rennasiance.

Also Your All I Need was very influential in rap/female rnb love duets due to the success and critical acclaim of that song

Plus Id take Meth over Nas personally based on originality,having a far better voice and delivery



Far as Outkast,they was hot back before NY was okay with biting the hell out of atlanta nikkas.


Far as Outkast the you saidnyourself east coast wasnt popping back then,so who the hell would be catering to yall

Sounded funky enough to fit in and ride off that west coast wave though,and they couldnt influence the west cuz we already had nikkas that sounded like them

They had influence in the south though,but you already said you dont give a shyt about that....soooo,whats more to be said

I'll start with outkast, The whole flow is watered down east coast tongue twisting rap. Big Boi is the biggest offender out of the group. The concept of the album is southern, but the flow is stolen from tongue twisting. I already broke down the tongue twisters rappers.



Method man huh?

Meth before illmatic


Meth after Illmatic

 

[Tom Foolery]

^^^^^ and this is why it's never wise to argue with fools ladies and gentlemen. It's pointless. No matter the proof. These nikkas creating their own reality. It does not matter the proof provided. It will be dismissed. And I could bet money the people tryna school these cats such as @Tom Foolery are older than them.

Yeah I'm pretty much done. They rather go off topic than accept their L.

I only do it because the truth needs to be told with no revisions.

 

[bigbadbossup2012]

^^^^^ and this is why it's never wise to argue with fools ladies and gentlemen. It's pointless. No matter the proof. These nikkas creating their own reality. It does not matter the proof provided. It will be dismissed. And I could bet money the people tryna school these cats such as @Tom Foolery are older than them.

Dude i made you bow down and backtrack on multiple stances. I leaned you back. How dare you talk to your Pa in such a way.

See my friends,this is how you shyt on weak posters. This dude that was so adamant about Nas changing the game with Illmatic has NOW went back on a couple of his stances.
First it was "He changed the game from nikkas biting the west"
Now it's "he changed the game from stagnation to active"
First "people were doing alot of biting before Illmatic"
Now "the biting was from 1994 to 1996"
Which is during and after illmatic.
And this proves illmatic did nothing you said it did.
Your stagnation argument is Null too. Dont come around anymore
This debate is over you a fukkin clown and should stop debating nikkas whom really lived it.

 

[bigbadbossup2012]

Yeah I'm pretty much done. They rather go off topic than accept their L.

I only do it because the truth needs to be told with no revisions.

What's off topic and what is revisionist history?

1.What did Nas bring that was new?

2. When you say west coast funk grooves were at the forefront and dominating,what do you mean? How were they dominating,like in what way?

3a. What was new about Nasir's style? So what it wasnt the 80's anymore.Are you implying it was cool to jack rakim's style cause it was no longer the 80's? If not,what does that statement mean?
3b. Lmao,absolute Nonsense. 1st off, Nas changed what?
When Nas was hurting cause he flopped,Method Man was flourishing. Meanwhile nas had to change his approach just to get some traction.
.
You said Nas (illmatic era) was the reason,nikkas wasnt rhyming in "over the top styles anymore" but I clearly pointed out two artists with defined styles (from the east) whom debuts dropped right after his,yet were selling faster than illmatic and whom they influenced or not doesnt change that . Especially when Nasir's style was so ineffective that he was forced to switch up immediately just to survive in hiphop. In 1996 The Fugees and Busta were both very style influenced acts. And that's just the east. It took a member of a style based group to help put nas over from flop-ville to hitsville.
On a nationwide level downplaying the influence of Bone and Outkast is laughable.
Till this day there are multiple stars across the country with stand out styles that are very successful.
And Nas is as guilty of cashing in on another person's style as anyone you're attempting to get at.
Being like nas was not a key for NY coming back,being like biggie was.
Jay
Nas
Pun

All took that biggie approach to success.

Point it out please

 

[Still Benefited]

I'll start with outkast, The whole flow is watered down east coast tongue twisting rap. Big Boi is the biggest offender out of the group. The concept of the album is southern, but the flow is stolen from tongue twisting. I already broke down the tongue twisters rappers.



Method man huh?

Meth before illmatic


Meth after Illmatic

its the same damn Meth,Nas wish he could bring that energy to a track.....yall gon just throw whatever at the wall hoping it sticks i see.....i just gave you the receipts you been asking for and this the counter attack?...receipts was all good when it was Nas propaganda though,yall see this right?onlookers and coli guest,zoom in tight and see the slick shyt these nikkas tryna pull....

You realize you didnt do anything to downplay Meths impact and influence right?which is what you asked for.

Glad we all agree we done arguing with each other,Spliz think he slick not answering my simple yes or no question that wouldve burried his credibility,see u got time to come back in cosigning and talking shyt though


Ill just let the people decide who was reaching,creating new arguments,being hypocrites,backing down from receipts,juelz gif'ing all over the place.