Giannis/Jokic watch, vs The (2020s) Field in comparison...

[cartierhoe]

If Jokic gets another MVP and championship this summer he'll go down historically better than Giannis simply because you can build a contender around Jokic much easier than you can around Giannis. Giannis' deficiencies show up tenfold in the playoffs when the game slows down and you just need a bucket. Jokic has counters on top of counters whether getting a bucket for himself or a teammate, or just simply running a 2 man game with Murray.

The 2021 championship was special for sure, but that Suns team lacked size in the worst way, and they allowed Ayton to go man instead of loading up the painted area. Unless Giannis can get a go to move, or be able to read/manipulate a defense better than he has in previous playoff performances, he won't be able to dominate in transition or size in the postseason. I say all this as a Giannis guy btw.

 

[L. Deezy]

Halfway thru the 20s almost, and I think it's pretty clear these are the two that have separated above the competition. Whether due to old greats aging out:

LeBron, Steph, Durant, Kawhi, Harden

Or due to less consistency via injury or playoff ineffectiveness:

Tatum, Luka, Embiid

And with a half-decade left I guess there's still time to see if the following guys ascend to this level:

SGA, Ant

But as it stands now, I think these two are the guys who've proven for a half-decade they are the best players alive. Who do you think is better now, Jokic or Giannis, who do you think will be better going forward, who when it's all said and done, 10 years from now, will we look back and say was the better player career-for-career? And why?

I agree

Zion blew it

Ja..tryin to shoot his way into the mix.. [dont ask me how]

 

[Jplaya2023]

If Jokic gets another MVP and championship this summer he'll go down historically better than Giannis simply because you can build a contender around Jokic much easier than you can around Giannis. Giannis' deficiencies show up tenfold in the playoffs when the game slows down and you just need a bucket. Jokic has counters on top of counters whether getting a bucket for himself or a teammate, or just simply running a 2 man game with Murray.

The 2021 championship was special for sure, but that Suns team lacked size in the worst way, and they allowed Ayton to go man instead of loading up the painted area. Unless Giannis can get a go to move, or be able to read/manipulate a defense better than he has in previous playoff performances, he won't be able to dominate in transition or size in the postseason. I say all this as a Giannis guy btw.

Both the heat and suns lacked size (pause) to compete against greek and joker respectively. Atleast ayton was 7ft. Bam is 6'9 210 ish and joker is 7'1 270ish lol

But looking at the 2, Greeks weaknesses can be exposed more than Joker. Greek being a below avg shootee and relying on drives is more exploitable than jokers lack of footspeed defensively and overall lack of defensive prowess especially in this iteration of the NBA

 

[murksiderock]

The bar has risen. 3x MVP means it's not just about this season, but going forward, he has to contend every season the rest of his prime, and he has to win at minimum, one more title...

•Moses won his 3rd MVP in Y7, the year he won his only ring;

•Magic won his 3rd MVP in Y11, already a 5x champ (3x as a #1);

•Bird won his 3rd MVP in Y7, the year he won his 3rd title;

•Bron won his 3rd MVP in Y9, the year he won his 1st title;

•Wilt won his 3rd MVP in Y8, having already won his first title;

•Russell won his 3rd MVP in Y6, the year he won his 5th title;

•Jordan won his 3rd MVP in Y8, the year he won his 2nd title;

•Kareem won his 3rd MVP in Y5, having already won his first title....

On average, these guys with 3+ MVPs win ~1.75 championships after the season they win 3rd MVP. So between 1, and 2, more championships, Big Mo being the only guy to never win more than one championship. Hes the outlier...

Jokic is only 29 and Y9, him finishing his career with just one ring, would be a massive, massive disappointment. In theory he appeats to have plebty of time left, about 5 to 6 years of prime left...

The bar has risen, every single year he's this level of elite player, he needs to be in real contention, few to no early playoff L's. It is what it is...

Congrats to a true All-Timer, now the next half-decade minimum let's see you validate it...

In my next post I'm posting what this means for Giannis too, because this definitely impacts him too...

 

[murksiderock]

This video hits some points I both agree and disagree with...

For one thing, I do not think that just because you win the championship, you're now the best player in the NBA, which is the mindset Timpf (and others) subscribe to. I don't think "best player alive" is something that just changes hands each year, or any time a new team wins the LOB...

The Wolves could win it all this year and it doesn't make Ant the best player alive to me, given this is just his first season at this level of player. That's not how this works, not for me. Nobody can take that title from Jokic this year....

But I do agree with the video's premise, that Jokic is in rare, rare air historically, and if he really That Guy, even if he ultimately loses this series to Minny, he's gotta go out on his sword, he can't look like he did the first two games, the rest of the series...

As for Giannis, he beat Jokic to 1 and 2 MVPs, Jokic has passed him. Jokic is his primary competition of this era, and unlike Timpf, I DO NOT think there's this wide gap between Jokic and "whoever is the second best player". Jokic is generally a much better playoff performer than Giannis, but Giannis is right there with him as a player...

But if I'm Giannis, and I know this is my primary comp in this era, I understand historically I will be viewed by how my career matches up to his. And right now, people are forgetting about Giannis...

I think it's Jokic 1, Giannis 2, but it's close. Giannis has the opportunity to swing the pendulum back in his favor, because right now, mf's say this is Jokic's era...

Giannis also has a very unimpressive postseason resume overall, for anyone who isn't simply a ring counter, this is clear as day. That has to change, or else there very well could be separation to come between he and Jokic in the years to come...

 

[Shadow King]

To nitpick the OP, Tatum and Luka don't belong in the "playoff ineffective" category. Tatum does belong in the injury category though for '22...

 

[murksiderock]

To nitpick the OP, Tatum and Luka don't belong in the "playoff ineffective" category. Tatum does belong in the injury category though for '22...

Both of em looking quite shaky here early in the '24 playoffs this would actually be Luka's first time I've seen him being shaky for the duration of a playoff run, if it continues...

I think the distinguishing factor with Luka, is given his stature as a player, there was an expectation that he'd be in the light we think of Jokic right now, and he isn't. He just missed the postseason a year ago, and while he's typically great in the playoffs, he has just one deep run...

Tatum has definitely looked shaky in the postseason before this year, and he's just not the caliber of player these other guys are anyway...

 

[Shadow King]

Both of em looking quite shaky here early in the '24 playoffs this would actually be Luka's first time I've seen him being shaky for the duration of a playoff run, if it continues...

I think the distinguishing factor with Luka, is given his stature as a player, there was an expectation that he'd be in the light we think of Jokic right now, and he isn't. He just missed the postseason a year ago, and while he's typically great in the playoffs, he has just one deep run...

Tatum has definitely looked shaky in the postseason before this year, and he's just not the caliber of player these other guys are anyway...

'24 is is 1 year out of numerous.

If we're acknowledging that Luka has a track record of individual playoff greatness then we know he's not the problem in Dallas's track record and doesn't belong in that category. Nobody is exempt from having a couple of average or inefficient postseasons and he's been due for one.

I've already acknowledged Tatum has a Finals where he was terrible but for some odd reason it gets disregarded that he had 1 shoulder by that point in the run. If Tatum was physically able to finish at the rim at the rate that he was earlier in that postseason, then Boston wins that ring in 6 or maybe even 5 games and we're looking at a top 15 all-timer a little bit different.

Saying Tatum isn't Giannis and Jokic is one thing but giving him a general playoff ineffectiveness label is another.

 

[murksiderock]

'24 is is 1 year out of numerous.

If we're acknowledging that Luka has a track record of individual playoff greatness then we know he's not the problem in Dallas's track record and doesn't belong in that category. Nobody is exempt from having a couple of average or inefficient postseasons and he's been due for one.

I've already acknowledged Tatum has a Finals where he was terrible but for some odd reason it gets disregarded that he had 1 shoulder by that point in the run. If Tatum was physically able to finish at the rim at the rate that he was earlier in that postseason, then Boston wins that ring in 6 or maybe even 5 games and we're looking at a top 15 all-timer a little bit different.

Saying Tatum isn't Giannis and Jokic is one thing but giving him a general playoff ineffectiveness label is another.

'22 isn't Tatum's only shaky moment...

With Luka all I was doing was clarifying that my initial post, was more about his lack of winning in the playoffs, than his individual play, I just didn't flesh it out well enough in my initial post...

 

[Shadow King]

'22 isn't Tatum's only shaky moment...

With Luka all I was doing was clarifying that my initial post, was more about his lack of winning in the playoffs, than his individual play, I just didn't flesh it out well enough in my initial post...

He choked away the Heat series last season and of course wasn't himself in the Golden State series. Before that he had a very good track record in elimination games and has a Game 7 scoring record. He tends to struggle with shot selection a bit because of his athletic limitations, but overall he's pulled it together when needed.

If we go far back enough we will be talking about a rookie and Y2 guy when it wasn't even his team (Kyrie) to judge him on an All-World/MVP level.

 

[murksiderock]

He choked away the Heat series last season and of course wasn't himself in the Golden State series. Before that he had a very good track record in elimination games and has a Game 7 scoring record. He tends to struggle with shot selection a bit because of his athletic limitations, but overall he's pulled it together when needed.

If we go far back enough we will be talking about a rookie and Y2 guy when it wasn't even his team (Kyrie) to judge him on an All-World/MVP level.

you know I wouldn't be talking about him that young. I only evaluate guys within their primes, Tatum's tracker of relevancy starts in 2020 for me...

 

[Jplaya2023]

Fair to up this thread now?

 

[Regular_P]

Fair to up this thread now?

It's still Jokic > Giannis

The last time we saw Giannis in the postseason, he was losing to an eight seed in round one while disappearing in the 4th quarter and going 10-23 from the line.

 

[Jplaya2023]

It's still Jokic > Giannis

The last time we saw Giannis in the postseason, he was losing to an eight seed in round one while disappearing in the 4th quarter and going 10-23 from the line.

Thats fair but 2 me there still on the same relative tier. Joker isnt clearly better. Agree?

 

[murksiderock]

It's still Jokic > Giannis

The last time we saw Giannis in the postseason, he was losing to an eight seed in round one while disappearing in the 4th quarter and going 10-23 from the line.

It's still Jokic but it's close bruh...

So far, they've been the Top 2 players if this era, everybody else is after. And they have almost the exact same awards line, one Finals run/ring, two conference finals runs, multiple MVPs (Giannis' DPOY matches Jokic's 3rd MVP)...

Jokic ahead because he is far more consistent in the playoffs. But Giannis is a half-step behind him...

The Jokic/Giannis watch I think is something to track the rest of their careers, and to see is there anyone else that will ascend to their level. As of yet nobody else is on their level...