Giannis/Jokic watch, vs The (2020s) Field in comparison...
- Thread starter murksiderock
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murksiderock
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Relevant bump...
As it stands right now, I think Jokic is in the Top 20 and Giannis Top 25 of All-Time. They've earned that stature, and i still believe they've both got room to climb up...
Both these guys have Top 10 potential, and for Jokic specifically, we have a ceiling as greatest player ever. That's likely a long shot; Giannis I think is clearly out of greatest player ever contention, but he's still in play for Top 10----->and he's still in play for finishing higher than Jokic...
Presumably, there's a lot of basketball left for these two guys. A whole lot; these stories aren't done yet. But a harsh reality we all acknowledge, is you gotta win big. As the other thread recently discussed, it's not out of the realm of possibility that these guys never win another title, which sounds crazy----->but that shyt ain't guaranteed and a lot of guys with historically elite peaks never won more than one: Pettit. Moses. Garnett. West. On and on...
And should Jokic or Giannis never win another ring, they aren't going ahead of Top 10 guys with more, even if we think they were better players...
One thing I think that will have to be necessarily contextualized going forward, though, is you can already sense the, "Jokic never had any All-Star teammates for x amount of years" going crazy. Jamal Murray not being an All-Star is a historically aberration. He's every bit on the level of say, a Kevin McHale, Pau Gasol, Sam Jones, Tony Parker, etc------>especially in the playoffs or in the clutch...
This doesn't take away from Jokic's greatness, because every All-Timer had great teammates. I'm just pointing out that when the "well he played with no All-Stars" thing comes up, while technically true, it underrates that he had a great #2 with him for this run and that, that technicality is a historical aberration...
Also, Aaron Gordon is clearly turning into an All-Star level #3. Even before this season, his fit next to Jokic has been seamless, so again I think as the Jokic convo continues to grow, it'll underrate that he played with some really good players who were also on his timeline...
Nonetheless, as I said both he and Giannis have a lot of ball left and both can run up these boards. They are still to me, the two greatest players of this era, and while Jokic has put a little separation between he and Giannis, it's not a ton. They've both played in one Finals and two conference finals....
The rest of the guys of this era, look. Tatum has a career akin to Kawhi in the sense that he's never played on a bad team. He's always winning, but comparatively his best isn't as high as a lot of guys. Winning more championships will push him forward too (and I'm a guy who thinks he's already on the precipice of Top 75 consideration)---->but Tatum is a case of a right place, right time guy. We know he's a great player but he has to do a LOT more championship winning to approach the Giannis/Jokic level...
Embiid is akin to Kawhi in the sense he had a similar height at peak but his career is marred by injuries, he's outta the running...
Shai and Ant appear to have the abilities to ascend at some point, but there's gonna be real questions being asked if these nikkas never get outta the conference. I'm particularly looking harder at Shai currently, who is further along in his development and has had better teams. Yes, he's typically played well in the playoffs, but that narrative will turn against him quicker than you think if he doesn't play well enough to go deep. Two straight years he's been a #1 seed, I'm really interested in seeing how this current series plays out...
You can't get outplayed by the other team's guy in these big series constantly and get into the Giannis/Jokic convo...
Luka, that bill is coming due for him soon, too, particularly given his last two postseasons are creating a deserving narrative of a guy who either doesn't want it bad enough or game gets exposed later you play in the playoffs (teetering into Harden territory there), or a guy who is GREAT but maybe isn't great enough to win it all on a championship team. Which, he wouldn't be the first All-Timer who ends up in that category...
I'll throw Butler a bone here too, who while he's the age of the prior era guys, his best basketball came in the 2020s era, so realistically he's kinda a 2020s player, just older. He was not even close to being a factor when these other old guys were dominating the sport, and he was in The League with them...
Similar to Tatum, I do think Butler as is, is on the brink of Top 75 contention. A championship would go a long way to stamping him as one of the greatest players ever at that level, but like most these other guys, he can't reach the Giannis/Jokic level...
As it stands right now, I think Jokic is in the Top 20 and Giannis Top 25 of All-Time. They've earned that stature, and i still believe they've both got room to climb up...
Both these guys have Top 10 potential, and for Jokic specifically, we have a ceiling as greatest player ever. That's likely a long shot; Giannis I think is clearly out of greatest player ever contention, but he's still in play for Top 10----->and he's still in play for finishing higher than Jokic...
Presumably, there's a lot of basketball left for these two guys. A whole lot; these stories aren't done yet. But a harsh reality we all acknowledge, is you gotta win big. As the other thread recently discussed, it's not out of the realm of possibility that these guys never win another title, which sounds crazy----->but that shyt ain't guaranteed and a lot of guys with historically elite peaks never won more than one: Pettit. Moses. Garnett. West. On and on...
And should Jokic or Giannis never win another ring, they aren't going ahead of Top 10 guys with more, even if we think they were better players...
One thing I think that will have to be necessarily contextualized going forward, though, is you can already sense the, "Jokic never had any All-Star teammates for x amount of years" going crazy. Jamal Murray not being an All-Star is a historically aberration. He's every bit on the level of say, a Kevin McHale, Pau Gasol, Sam Jones, Tony Parker, etc------>especially in the playoffs or in the clutch...
This doesn't take away from Jokic's greatness, because every All-Timer had great teammates. I'm just pointing out that when the "well he played with no All-Stars" thing comes up, while technically true, it underrates that he had a great #2 with him for this run and that, that technicality is a historical aberration...
Also, Aaron Gordon is clearly turning into an All-Star level #3. Even before this season, his fit next to Jokic has been seamless, so again I think as the Jokic convo continues to grow, it'll underrate that he played with some really good players who were also on his timeline...
Nonetheless, as I said both he and Giannis have a lot of ball left and both can run up these boards. They are still to me, the two greatest players of this era, and while Jokic has put a little separation between he and Giannis, it's not a ton. They've both played in one Finals and two conference finals....
The rest of the guys of this era, look. Tatum has a career akin to Kawhi in the sense that he's never played on a bad team. He's always winning, but comparatively his best isn't as high as a lot of guys. Winning more championships will push him forward too (and I'm a guy who thinks he's already on the precipice of Top 75 consideration)---->but Tatum is a case of a right place, right time guy. We know he's a great player but he has to do a LOT more championship winning to approach the Giannis/Jokic level...
Embiid is akin to Kawhi in the sense he had a similar height at peak but his career is marred by injuries, he's outta the running...
Shai and Ant appear to have the abilities to ascend at some point, but there's gonna be real questions being asked if these nikkas never get outta the conference. I'm particularly looking harder at Shai currently, who is further along in his development and has had better teams. Yes, he's typically played well in the playoffs, but that narrative will turn against him quicker than you think if he doesn't play well enough to go deep. Two straight years he's been a #1 seed, I'm really interested in seeing how this current series plays out...
You can't get outplayed by the other team's guy in these big series constantly and get into the Giannis/Jokic convo...
Luka, that bill is coming due for him soon, too, particularly given his last two postseasons are creating a deserving narrative of a guy who either doesn't want it bad enough or game gets exposed later you play in the playoffs (teetering into Harden territory there), or a guy who is GREAT but maybe isn't great enough to win it all on a championship team. Which, he wouldn't be the first All-Timer who ends up in that category...
I'll throw Butler a bone here too, who while he's the age of the prior era guys, his best basketball came in the 2020s era, so realistically he's kinda a 2020s player, just older. He was not even close to being a factor when these other old guys were dominating the sport, and he was in The League with them...
Similar to Tatum, I do think Butler as is, is on the brink of Top 75 contention. A championship would go a long way to stamping him as one of the greatest players ever at that level, but like most these other guys, he can't reach the Giannis/Jokic level...
Jokic is not and will not ever be in the greatest player ever conversation.
murksiderock
Superstar
He's not in it now and it's a long shot but I think he still has a chance at it...Jokic is not and will not ever be in the greatest player ever conversation.
No I understood your distinction. I just strongly disagree.
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