How An African Empire Influenced African-American Roast Sessions

[Brer Dog]

Yes, this is a repost. I was new to thread posting when I originally did this thread, and ignorantly posted it in tlr...

AT 1 MINUTE MARK......HE SAID "ROAST SESSIONS ARE PRETTY MUCH A UNIQUE AA PHENOMEMON"


HELL NO...........

I think when he said "roast sessions" he was referring to the dozens and not roasting in general. This is why he said "roast sessions or the dozens."
Saying roast sessions are unique to AAs, would contradict the whole video.

How accurate is this video?
I've read books about American and African American humor and I don't recall this information.

Given how much mandinka influence there's on AA culture, and how big roasting is within AA culture, it seems like a no brainer. @Samori Toure could probably explain it better.

 

[Brer Dog]

@Rhap.So.D damn nikka, I just posted the shyt

 

[Rhapture]

@Rhap.So.D damn nikka, I just posted the shyt

I got my alerts set for the root lmao! One of my favorite sub forums

 

[Samori Toure]

Yes, this is a repost. I was new to thread posting when I originally did this thread, and ignorantly posted it in tlr...




I think when he said "roast sessions" he was referring to the dozens and not roasting in general. This is why he said "roast sessions or the dozens."
Saying roast sessions are unique to AAs, would contradict the whole video.



Given how much mandinka influence there's on AA culture, and how big roasting is within AA culture, it seems like a no brainer. @Samori Toure could probably explain it better.

Like the video says that is where we get "playing the dozens" from. It is also referred to as the joking relationship or sinunkunya. The Mandingos actually engaged in playing the dozens before business deals; at court before the Mansa and during funerals. It was usually a way to relieve stress and bind the clans. Another name for playing the dozens is cousinage, which is probably why African Americans refer to people as their "cousins" even if they are not related.
Joking Relationships | Cultures of West Africa

The other stuff that African Americans brought to the USA from Mali (Mandingos), includes Blues music. Blues music is where just about all other American music comes from, including Country music, Rock and Roll, Disco, Jazz, etc. The Mandingos also are responsible for the banjo and for Rap music which is what griots used to remember family history and kings. Mali also had a Constitution, Universities and primary schools referred to as Koranic schools that were built out of their Mosques. That likely explains why African Americans had so many literate ancestors and the knowledge on how to develop colleges and universities, which were built out of their Churches.
MANDINKATALINWO: The Charter of The Ancient Manden Empire: What binds the Clans
Project MUSE - Bound to Africa: the Mandinka Legacy in the New World

Fwiw, Manden is the name of the place and the people. Either the Arab or a Fulani word for Manden is Mali. Manden people are now just called Mande people. Mandenka (Mande-nka) or Mandengo/Mandingo (Mande-ngo), means people of or citizen of Manden (Mali).

 

[get these nets]

Given how much mandinka influence there's on AA culture, and how big roasting is within AA culture, it seems like a no brainer. @Samori Toure could probably explain it better.

The comments he makes in the video sound incomplete because they are.

African American writer Mel Watkins wrote a few books about African American Humor. In On the Real Side, he writes


In paragraph beginning "Specific word games"



=========================================================================

A different music writer, white American, expands on Watkins' point about multiple African ethnic precursors to diasporic roasting and the dozens by citing some of the same sources that Watkins uses.

 

[Brer Dog]

Another name for playing the dozens is cousinage, which is probably why African Americans refer to people as their "cousins" even if they are not related.

Is Play cousins/kin a thing in mandinka culture?

 

[Samori Toure]

Is Play cousins/kin a thing in mandinka culture?

Yup. According to Matt Schafer, the Mandingos are also the reason that we get the phrases "big" to refer to someone older and "little" to refer to someone that is younger. So if you have an older brother you call him your big brother, even if he is smaller than you; and you call your younger brother your little brother even if he is bigger than you. Some people call their grandmothers big mama, which distinguishes them from the child's mother. Schafer also believes that the Mandingos are the reason that we refer to older women as aunts and older men as uncles, even if they are not related to us. That is also the reason that fathers are referred to as "big whatever" and a son named after the father is named "little whatever."
Project MUSE - Bound to Africa: the Mandinka Legacy in the New World

Btw, they call it Mande culture, because Mandinka are now an actual tribe within the Mande ethnic group.

 

[Samori Toure]

The comments he makes in the video sound incomplete because they are.

African American writer Mel Watkins wrote a few books about African American Humor. In On the Real Side, he writes


In paragraph beginning "Specific word games"



=========================================================================

A different music writer, white American, expands on Watkins' point about multiple African ethnic precursors to diasporic roasting and the dozens by citing some of the same sources that Watkins uses.

I don't know what your articles are supposed to show but the Bozo people are Mande. Moreover, the Dogon are also thought to be a Mande people, but some of their language also falls with the Gur family of languages so there is a debate as to whether they are purely Mande.
Bozo people - Wikipedia
Dogon | people

In any event the Ashanti (the Akan people) are originally from the Empire of Ghana, which was a Mande Kingdom founded by the Soninke. The Akan moved to their current location in modern day Ghana sometime between 1100-1300 to evade Islam. Moreover, they had long standing trade ties with the Mande people, who lived to their North in modern day Ghana and Burkina Faso. So the Akan people had been exposed to that joking relationship for centuries beforehand; in fact the Akan people renamed the Gold Coast after Ghana which shows where they were initially from.

I wrote all of that say that the joking culture is part of Mande culture. Due to European slaving efforts along the Rice Coast (Senegal, Gambia, Guinea Bissau, Guinea, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Ivory Coast) and in Upper Volta (Burkina Faso and Northern Ghana) there were a large number of Mande brought to the USA, which is why so much Mande culture exists among African Americans in the USA and among Southern White people in the USA.

 

[get these nets]

@Carolina
@Samori Toure

So, we're all on the same page. To recap, some of the details in my last post. I posted works citing leading scholars in the field of folklore and culture. Several ethnic groups known to have engaged in "dozens style traditions", and SOME of the groups and the names of their traditions are listed where applicable

• Nigeria Igbo Ikocha Nkocha
• Dahomey apo
• Ghana Ano & Ewe halo
• Nigeria Hausa combat literature
• Nigerian pidgin wording
• Wolof xaxaar
• Yoruba
• Dogon
• Bozo
• Bono

Diaspora cultures spawned oral traditions similar to playing the dozens with country and name of tradition listed

• Haiti chante pwen
• Colombia vociferacion
• Ecuador vacilada
• Barbados banter
• Jamaica banta
• Cuba puyas/controversias
• Guiana awawa
• Guyana tantalisin
• Puerto Rico relajo
• Trinidad fatigue / picong
  
• Saint Vincent rhyming

Rhyming is designated to be the closest tradition to the dozens, as observed by one of the leading writers of African American folklore.

I remember when the video was first posted. It didn't ring true to me when he said the dozens came out of a single tradition from Africa. Nor did it ring true to me that the dozens were a tradition unique to one country in the diaspora. I went back and looked over some of the books I read years ago, and the historians seem to support what I thought I remembered..

 

[Samori Toure]

@Carolina
@Samori Toure

So, we're all on the same page. To recap, some of the details in my last post. I posted works citing leading scholars in the field of folklore and culture. Several ethnic groups known to have engaged in "dozens style traditions", and SOME of the groups and the names of their traditions are listed where applicable

• Nigeria Igbo Ikocha Nkocha
• Dahomey apo
• Ghana Ano & Ewe halo
• Nigeria Hausa combat literature
• Nigerian pidgin wording
• Wolof xaxaar
• Yoruba
• Dogon
• Bozo
• Bono

Diaspora cultures spawned oral traditions similar to playing the dozens with country and name of tradition listed

• Haiti chante pwen
• Colombia vociferacion
• Ecuador vacilada
• Barbados banter
• Jamaica banta
• Cuba puyas/controversias
• Guiana awawa
• Guyana tantalisin
• Puerto Rico relajo
• Trinidad fatigue / picong
  
• Saint Vincent rhyming

Rhyming is designated to be the closest tradition to the dozens, as observed by one of the leading writers of African American folklore.

I remember when the video was first posted. It didn't ring true to me when he said the dozens came out of a single tradition from Africa. Nor did it ring true to me that the dozens were a tradition unique to one country in the diaspora. I went back and looked over some of the books I read years ago, and the historians seem to support what I thought I remembered..

There are several ethnic groups that now play the Blues, but that does not mean that the Blues did not start in Mali. There are several ethnic groups that not cook Jollof Rice, but that does not mean that Jollof Rice is not from the Jollof (Wolof) people of Senegal. The dozens are originally from the Mande people and just because other groups now does it that does not mean that it is not from Mali.

Another thing that you need to understand is that you are listing modern Countries like Nigeria. The Mande spread out all over West Africa after Mali went into decline. So those Nigerians were likely introduced to the dozens by the Mande people that moved into their region. It long known that the Hausa were long distance traders into Mali. So they would have definitely been introduced to the dozens by the Mandingos, which was an essential element to doing business deals with the Mande.

 

[Shabazz]

I remember reading an account of a European who explored West Africa in the 1800's and he mentioned how Africans would make fun of each other. I think he was listening in on a conversion between some Fulani's and some other ethnic group though.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

I would say every culture has some form of "roasting" but the style we know as the Dozens from american pop culture has a distinct Afram nature. The reason I say this is because when you hear many stories from foreign blacks describing being teased by aframs in their youth, they almost never realize/put into context that they were just going through a dozens session. You know how many times on this site that aframs had to explain that many of the jokes foreign blacks heard are the same jokes that many other aframs received (from other aframs), too?

more on the afram nature of the dozens

H Rap Brown really hits on it

 

[MischievousMonkey]

I would say every culture has some form of "roasting" but the style we know as the Dozens from american pop culture has a distinct Afram nature. The reason I say this is because when you hear many stories from foreign blacks describing being teased by aframs in their youth, they almost never realize/put into context that they were just going through a dozens session. You know how many times on this site that aframs had to explain that many of the jokes foreign blacks heard are the same jokes that many other aframs received (from other aframs), too?

more on the afram nature of the dozens

H Rap Brown really hits on it

Foreign black people teased in their youth would not have the opportunity to experience their home country version of the dozens

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Foreign black people teased in their youth would not have the opportunity to experience their home country version of the dozens

...they did't have any older siblings, cousins, aunts & uncles etc..?

 

[MischievousMonkey]

...they did't have any older siblings, cousins, aunts & uncles etc..?

You know damn well that's not the same as getting roasted by your age peers on the schoolyard