How can you believe in religion?

Its...

  • Really real and if you don't believe you'll regret it

  • All made up and a huge psycho-spiritual trick that preys on peoples fears and ignorance

  • Been corrupted and edited way beyond its original intentions and has became a weapon


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Sauce and Footwork

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Grew up Christian. Was always evidence-based. I needed proof for everything my whole life. Im a thinker.

I had friends I fell out with because of their new-age and satanist occult beliefs. Went through my "illuminati investigator" phase.

I was baptised before I graduated High School. Went to college. Was exposed to multiple different religions

Became agnostic. Went through REAL LIFE shyt. shyt I CANNOT TALK ABOUT ON THE COLI. IYKYK.

Now I am a believer in Jesus Christ. I can't preach or convince you any other way. This is my life's story. And the pages are still being written everyday
Do you consider the fact that if you grew up Muslim (I am not Muslim) 9x out of 10 you would not be a Christian and still be Muslim, given you would be taught to think differently in regards to how you look at God and how you praise him/ her. despite you say you went through things because your family would be…. Muslim.. imagine if you were born in Iraq..your community would be.. muslim …so you go through life you are not going to say, I know Jesus brought me through this. you ultimately grew up a Christian, so you placed your faith in what you knew being Christianity. That’s what you were literally raised to be. Therefore provides you comfort and you have the most faith in its beliefs and connection to it. If someone is Muslim and makes it through something, they say praise allah, because that’s what they were taught unless they converted…and others of other religions have experienced and overcome the same things you have and even more. There are billions of people on the earth. So everyone experiences unique circumstances. If someone is Hindu… so on and so on. This is literally how everyone from every religion feels. Yes you accepted Jesus Christ as an adult, but that’s what you were also raised as and groomed to be since a child in church. If you were Indian you would be Hindu or Chinese maybe Buddhist (more a philosophical way of life). Everyone who is religious thinks they word is the true word when it’s just the one that they just identify the most with. You are a AA born in America, therefore you were born Christian. Therefore it’s only a choice to cease being a Christian or stay one..But you are programmed to be one at birth. Since AA were brought into this country. It’s just a fact. Doesn’t make you not a thinker. It’s programming. It’s a cycle

For the record I do believe there is a God, being some unified sole form of consciousness. But what exactly it is idk. But no one on this earth knows .
 
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MMS

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And is very interesting and it shows how early and quick the filters kick in based on information and expectation. It also shows the nature of learned helplessness, resonance etc.. and its implications are quite immense when you consider not just the topic but the world as well.

This is what I call the Mind Made Prison and most people don't even realize they're in it as they just keep on digging the same old reality tunnel without questioning the blueprint, who gave them the shovel or where its all headed...

You can't change the world if you are hell bent on staying the same so someone has to ask these questions because its future generations at stake. Its all information. Learn to use it correctly and make better decisions by accessing greater options.
something interesting to me about the way you post is that you love to mention filters, game, tunnel etc

but do you ever think that you are the restrictor to your own perception? like: do you truly dwell on whether your preexisting notions are really real? or are they just currently real?

if we all seem to inhabit the same reality, based on the same rules, then that would imply a mutual source....am i rite?

people love to separate religion and spirituality without properly defining either and instead of separating them from God they imply that God can only be found through a means. To me it speaks more to a mans separations than his foundations.
 

NatiboyB

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We were told to believe in it and even forced. Across generations as a method of control/ population management. Some people are just going to be locked into their worship gene and have to worship something rather a god, an experience, or chasing some type of thirst.


Spirituality will always be present what people choose to believe in is up to them. But when they start forcing that belief system on others via murder/mutilation/assault and use it to further expand your financial resources you have to ask yourself if you are believing in the right things.
 

Fillerguy

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I'm having a hard time following what you're asking but I believe I have an idea.

Most religious people believe, non-believers, of their religion, are wrong. The existence of other religions barely have an impact on one's religious beliefs. This lining questioning is rare for most people...those who consider the exist of other religions are often moved to discredit or destroy them. That process typically strengthens their beliefs.

The Mediterranean during antiquity was a great example. Hundreds of religions, pagan and monotheistic, exposed to countless gods and beliefs while still maintaining their own dogmas (mostly). Modern western society suffers from Abrahamic theistic hegemony, in that we rarely question our religious beliefs. Judaism, Islam and Christianity are the only relevant religions here and these 3 more less say the things, with the same value system. Theres very little reason to critique one's religion unless you make a conscious effort to do so. And doing that isn't advantageous or is dangerous at times
 

Ghost Utmost

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The Universe is made of consciousness.

This statement is something that quantum physics has been looking into.

The consciousness of the Universe is what we call G-d.

G-d is not Santa Clause. And not your friend - per se. All the bad shyt comes from the same source as the good. Make of that what you will.

"Religion" is largely fiction. But it promotes important philosophical ideas for those who can interpret and absorb what is being communicated.

Taking "religion" as a science text book is a mistake. It is more poetry than science.

And there is a science to spirituality. Same rules as normal science. Experiment. Analyze the results. Find the truth. But Spirit science is not the same as religion... but a GOOD religion will be scientific.
 
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I am Christian because of a successions of events since the Big Bang. Muslims were the first to get into Congolese/Zaire territory from the east for slave trading. They couldn’t cope with local resistance or tropical disease. This means, the territory could have been Muslim way earlier. Europeans priest came later on. I am Christian because my parents are Christians. I didn’t study the other religions and have no intention to because I have no time for that. Despite the fact that my religion helps me in the way I conduct myself, I know there were 1000 religions before throughout human history . Simple statistical probability says that my religion to be the one with the ultimate truth is low.
 

Th3Birdman

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Are you basically saying that there's no possible universe in which supernatural reality could occur, if not everyone knew about it? That if any deity of any kind actually existed, the only option would be for it to force belief and worship on everyone in that reality?

I've noticed that you are incredibly rational and level headed when it comes to literally anything other than religion, where you then come across as an apologist with your attempts to weasel word and philosophize plainly stated positions.

I'll answer your question because he hasn't yet:

The reality you're asking about "exists"-- we call it fiction. The same way in which comic books have multiple universes, "fiction" is simply another universe in which the supernatural does "exist".

I've seen God in Bruce Almighty, Dogma, Evan Almighty and The Passion. He exists in those fictional universes. As far as we are all aware, he does not exist in this universe.

By definition, the supernatural cannot be observed in this reality. Once it has been observed, it ceases to be supernatural-- that's what the word "supernatural": beyond/outside observable reality.

I think we all agree that we exist in nature. So since we have not observed these so called supernatural beings and their doings, there is no good reason to believe in them. There are plenty of reasons to not believe in the gods that appear in the various dogmas and doctrines, most especially because science has been receding almost every claim made by these dogmas, giving naturalistic explanations for a variety of things that we assumed was the work of gods/demons/angels. And these explanations have evidence, something the dogmas do not. Which is an important part of this calculus, I'm sure you 'd agree.

So no, the supernatural does not exist for us, here, on this plane of existence. If you want to suggest otherwise, you have the burden of having to provide evidence of this claim, and you can't, by definition. Which of course means it simply remains a claim, not something to take seriously.

If you want to say there is a plane of existence that is beyond this one that we can physically experience, then you are again burdened with the task of providing evidence of this claim.
 

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I've noticed that you are incredibly rational and level headed when it comes to literally anything other than religion, where you then come across as an apologist with your attempts to weasel word and philosophize plainly stated positions.

I'm the exact same rational person no matter what I'm arguing.My arguments in religious discussions are no different from my arguments in other discussions. The fact that you take them differently says more about you than I.

Have you seen my discussions of Biblical history, or what I believe about Jesus? They're not weasel wordy in any sense. I use the exact same analytical mind that I use when I'm solving physics problems, trying to improve the education system, or hyping Lebron.



By definition, the supernatural cannot be observed in this reality. Once it has been observed, it ceases to be supernatural-- that's what the word "supernatural": beyond/outside observable reality.

That's not the definition of supernatural being used. Claiming "everything that we observe must be natural" is just circular reasoning. "Supernatural" is something that does not follow natural law. That doesn't mean it's not observable.


Wikipedia: Supernatural refers to phenomena or entities that are beyond the laws of nature.[1]

Dictionary.com: 1. of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.

Cambridge Dictionary: caused by forces that cannot be explained by science

Oxford: that cannot be explained by the laws of science


None of those require that it can never be observed. You're likely confused the colloquial phrase "observed universe", which some people use as shorthand for the universe as naturally understood.




So no, the supernatural does not exist for us, here, on this plane of existence. If you want to suggest otherwise, you have the burden of having to provide evidence of this claim, and you can't, by definition.

Again, that's pure circular reasoning. You just claim that supernatural by definition is something that de facto doesn't exist. It's not a serious argument.
 
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Th3Birdman

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I'm the exact same rational person no matter what I'm arguing. I didn't start to follow God until I was in college pursuing a physics degree, and all the people I discussed religion with were the same kind of rational, educated people that I was

But by all available and relevant definitions, you are not being rational by believing in the supernatural (and arguing for its existence)

Screenshot-434.png


Screenshot-435.png




You did not RATIONALLY come to that conclusion; on the contrary, the leap of faith you took is one built on emotion. What emotion that is, I would discover by having a conversation with you about it, but make no mistake, you did not make a rational decision.

As per the definition of the word, you would have to have a logical and sound reason to believe in what you do. Since we do not have evidence of the supernatural, it is illogical to assert that it is the truth, which you do in a roundabout way through a profession of belief in the supernatural.
I'm sorry, but you are not rational in this case.

And let's save the "flexibility of definitions" argument for a lesser mind-- we are both capable of understanding exactly what each other means when we use the words we do (a topic I'll touch on in a moment, because you definitely tried).

Have you seen my discussions of Biblical history, or what I believe about Jesus? They're not weasel wordy in any sense. I use the exact same analytical mind that I use when I'm solving physics problems, trying to improve the education system, or hyping Lebron.

I have not. However, I do not need to.

Bit of backstory: I grew up a hardcore Baptist Christian (my family still is-- I am the only atheist in my immediate and close extended family). I enthusiastically attended Bible study every Wednesday night, because I was a true believer. I can quote it all day. That is to say, I am well aware of what the Bible says, and there is nothing you can say to me that I don't already know or haven't said myself.

My point is, anything you could possibly say as a positive affirmation of the Bible as an accurate record of history WOULD BE BULLshyt. Again, I have not seen what you personally believe, outside of the last time you and I argued about this subject, which I remember quite well. But you can't present me with anything that wouldn't be apologist rhetoric that isn't easily refuted with logic, science and observation. I mean, sure you could definitely make outlandish claims too, but I do agree that you are a rational person otherwise, and wouldn't resort to something like that.

But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

That's not the definition of supernatural being used

Oh, but it is-- supernatural refers to the definition that I presented, or magic.

Take your pick, both are wrong.

You quite literally repeated my definition of supernatural (I'm not sure if you caught that in your haste to respond to me, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt):

Dictionary.com: 1. of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.

As we all can see, that's exactly what I said: beyond nature.

Now, here's where you've made a mistake: by presenting irrelevant (read: colloquial) definitions of the word, you're doing exactly what I said you do-- weasel wording.

The other two dictionary entries are not necessary: it's clear both of them are simply reiterating the first, which is that the word "supernatural" means that which cannot be observed in nature. They are also written in a way that allows weasel word apologists to fit in things that fit their worldview, as you tried to do with this quote:

Claiming "everything that we observe must be natural" is just circular reasoning. "Supernatural" is something that does not follow natural law. That doesn't mean it's not observable.

First of all, it appears that you don't know what "circular reasoning" means. Me stating the definition of the word, as relevant to this kind of discussion, is me setting the ground rules of the debate. Definitions have to matter and they have to be relevant. It's plainly obvious that we know what nature/natural means, but you don't seem to understand why this is important in the context of what is SUPERNATURAL.

Since we know what nature is, the super-nature is relevant, and it is why claims of the supernatural don't work. It's not circular reasoning; it's simply that your worldview is defeated by definitions alone, and you don't like that. I'm sorry, but I didn't come up with the meanings of these words, I just understand them. If we exist in nature, and something is outside of or beyond nature, BY DEFINITION the supernatural does not exist, practically or literally.


:francis:

Science is the cataloguing of nature in the form of a strict methodology. If something "cannot be explained by science", they are saying it does not exist in nature for science to even begin its catalogue. You are trying to use a colloquialism to make your case, and that is the dishonesty of apologetics.

The teachings of the various human made dogmas are ''supernatural'' in the sense that they make claims that are beyond nature. Meaning, these claims CANNOT EVER be examined by scientific observation. There isn't a methodology to test Genesis 1:3. How does whoever wrote Genesis 1 KNOW that God ***said*** "Let there be light", (or whatever the original Hebrew was)? That is an UNTESTABLE claim. There will never exist a method to test that claim. Further, by what mechanism did God create light? What method can test this?

That's what we are talking about when we use the term "supernatural". We are talking about beings and actions that are quite literally outside the purview of natural observation. We are not talking about things for which science COULD *potentially* test for, but currently doesn't have an explanation.

This is what you're trying to do with the follow-up definitions, and that does not work on me. No one in the scientific fields, atheist spaces, or other relevant non-apologetic spaces uses "supernatural" in the way you're attempting to here. In these contexts, it is always used with the understanding that it is beyond natural observation, so you sitting here trying to tell me


That doesn't mean it's not observable


...is frankly hilarious.

Again, that's pure circular reasoning. You just claim that supernatural by definition is something that de facto doesn't exist. It's not a serious argument.

This is an insane quote.

That is literally what that means. I'll prove it-- post a SINGLE observable instance of something supernatural.

You can't, and I know you can't, because by definition, if it were observable, it wouldn't be supernatural in the first place. YOU are the one using a colloquialism here, I am speaking strictly science.

No serious non-believer scientist uses supernatural in the way you're attempting to do here. That's my point-- you're trying to philosophize and I'm talking science. You can't speak in a scientific context about this because you are aware what you believe requires faith, and by definition, faith is to believe that which does not have evidence.
 

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But by all available and relevant definitions, you are not being rational by believing in the supernatural (and arguing for its existence)

You did not RATIONALLY come to that conclusion; on the contrary, the leap of faith you took is one built on emotion. What emotion that is, I would discover by having a conversation with you about it, but make no mistake, you did not make a rational decision.


First off, you're making a category error. Every decision is built on emotion - neuroscientists have proven that people incapable of emotion are incapable of making decisions, or only make arbitrary, bad decisions. Emotion is absolutely central to everyone's decision-making process. There are no solely "rational" decisions.

If you want to understand this more, read the following quick layman's summary of where your framework goes wrong, study the work of António Damásio, or look into the deep scientific verification of the principle:





The other two dictionary entries are not necessary: it's clear both of them are simply reiterating the first, which is that the word "supernatural" means that which cannot be observed in nature. They are also written in a way that allows weasel word apologists to fit in things that fit their worldview, as you tried to do with this quote:

That's nonsense, but there's zero reason to engage further on you with this. Your argument is purely circular.



I'm sorry, but I didn't come up with the meanings of these words, I just understand them. If we exist in nature, and something is outside of or beyond nature, BY DEFINITION the supernatural does not exist, practically or literally.

lol. Breh, take a philosophy course. Or just talk to a philosophy professor, and ask if your definition is valid. There's no point is discussing the topic with someone who believes by definition that they're right before any discussion has even begun. That's word games, not a rational look at the evidence.




The teachings of the various human made dogmas are ''supernatural'' in the sense that they make claims that are beyond nature. Meaning, these claims CANNOT EVER be examined by scientific observation.

Yes, this is true that not everything can be examined by scientific observation. But that's not limited to religion. There is MUCH in human experience that cannot be examined by scientific observation, like morality, ethics, philosophy, etc. Much of our experience of consciousness is beyond any scientific tools, even though some try. The fact that something isn't scientifically observable only means that it is not materialistic, not that it is not true.
 
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Th3Birdman

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First off, you're making a category error. Every decision is built on emotion - neuroscientists have proven that people incapable of emotion are incapable of making decisions, or only make arbitrary, bad decisions. Emotion is absolutely central to everyone's decision-making process. There are no solely "rational" decisions.

This is irrelevant to the point and expressly wrong.

Eating food is a rational decision. Hunger is not an emotion, it is a physiological state that if left untreated, will kill you. Non-human animals experience hunger and seek out food, not due to emotion, but due to the physiological state of hunger.

There ARE solely rational decisions. Deflection debunked.

Yes, my decision to believe in certain aspects of God is emotional, but its built on a rational framework. Just like your decision not to believe was also emotional. If you think otherwise, you're denying the scientific evidence.

Again, this is just wrong, and an appeal to authority fallacy, AND to an authority that has no evidence to even make said claim.

I became atheist due to my original dogma being unable to answer simple, logical questions. I questioned the Ark deluge story, for example, and Christians were unable to answer my questions. Logically, after many of these failures, it was a simple matter of flipping the off switch-- I no longer believe this because their are no answers for WHY we believe these things, meaning I no longer had reason TO believe those things.

That is entirely rational-- if you thought something was true and find out it doesn't have a leg to stand on, to no longer believe that thing is PRECISELY rational.

I was entirely unemotional in my decision making process-- I like evidence. I mean, I REALLY like evidence. I feel like I've shown that in my posts on this board. If they could provide evidence that stood up to scrutiny, I would still be a believer, it's as simple as that. I don't hate your god, or your dogma-- if it could be shown to be true, I would follow it, period.

You cannot possibly equate our decisions because mine was fact based, and you admitted yours was based on emotion. Like all believers, you attempt to equate your actions with those of atheists (i.e., the famous "atheism is a religion, too"), which is a way of admitting you know your position is hollow.

"You're just as bad as me" :Tim:


I don't see how the space-time continuum would exist at all without being formed by something/someone that can exist outside of space and time. Why is material reality even here? Why would there even be physical dimensions or matter within which anything else can occur?

You see, this shyt is not a rational reason to believe in a god. You are making a leap in ASSUMING that because something exists, it must have a creator. You are also asking WHY reality exists because you are ASSUMING it has a purpose.

The first issue is your biggest problem, and something every believer takes an atheistic approach when shown their position doesn't make sense: if something existing means there is a creator, then who created that creator???

You either "solve" this problem with an argument from infinite regress, or you logically HAVE to come to the conclusion that your god has always existed without a creator, which is the same position atheists take when talking about the universe.

The only problem is, the universe actually exists. To make the claim that the universe has always existed in one form or another is rational, because it actually exists, and we have evidence it exists, and we have evidence that matter cannot be destroyed and is always present in one form or another. This is what rationality looks like.

You *don't* have evidence of a god, and you admit you *assume* his existence. To say he always existed is the opposite of rational because you don't even have evidence of that existence in the first place. The atheistic approach is the rational one.


The second question you ask is expressly irrelevant-- you still have the "WHY", if your god exists. You don't know WHY he would create a material reality (assuming he did), so that is not a rational reason you leaped to god.

Do you see my point? I could do this to every thing you brought up.



That's nonsense, but there's zero reason to engage further on you with this. Your argument is purely circular.

Well.

That's one way to admit you were wrong, but not actually admit it. I'll take it.


Breh, take a philosophy course. Or just talk to a philosophy professor, and ask if your definition is valid

Exactly what I said to you (and it's obvious you start replying before you've read my entire post, because I literally said you are trying to use philosophy, and I'm using science contexts).

Philosophy isn't concerned with what is accurate, it's concerned with arguing for the sake of arguing. This is why I'm acutely aware of what you apologists do, exactly when you'd do what you do, and how to defeat you.

Jordan Peterson does what you do all day, and it's fukking exhausting listening to you people talk in circles. I'm not interested in philosophy, or even the philosophy of science. I am interested in the practical application of scientific principles.

In that specific context, supernatural is the antithesis of nature (natural). They are opposing concepts. Philosophers use a COLLOQUIAL definition of this word, the same way they use the colloquial definition of THEORY.

Being a physicist, you know scientists use these words in different contexts, I have no idea who you're trying to fool here.



Yes, this is true that not everything can be examined by scientific observation. But that's not limited to religion. There is MUCH in human experience that cannot be examined by scientific observation, like morality, ethics, philosophy, etc. Much of our experience of consciousness is beyond any scientific tools, even though some try. The fact that something isn't scientifically observable only means that it is not materialistic, not that it is not true.

You're trying to shift the discussion.

We are NOT talking about what we do and do not know. That is not what supernatural means. We are talking about what is POSSIBLE to know.

Objectively, there are a finite amount of objects in the universe. We might not ever know what all these things are, but it is POSSIBLE to know.

This is the context of our discussion about your god, because the claims as presented in the bible (and other various religious texts and dogmas) are IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW. They do not have basis in reality: snakes cannot talk, for example; we have detailed evolutionary records of snakes and evidence they once had legs, which means there was no snake in the garden to tempt Eve in Genesis 3, because snakes don't have the structures necessary to perform speech.

These are the types of supernatural claims the bible makes, and without any vagueness, this context is the context of the word supernatural-- do talking snakes exist, and have they ever existed?

Objectively, the answer is no. Therefore, the claim is supernatural, or beyond nature, and NOT "that which we don't know" because we DO know snakes could have never performed speech, nor do we have any evidence Genesis 3 ever occurred.

This is fairly simple to understand. :yeshrug:
 
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