How do you propose discussing immigration without sounding like a racist/nazi/xenophobe?

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

The core problems still aren't addressed and you'd still have shyt going on to those communities. Why? Because the problem isn't immigration.

The need for unskilled labor would be filled and businesses would have their needs met, the "community", as it were, is still going to have the EXACT SAME problems. My point here isn't to discount the idea that immigrants don't fill jobs. It's to highlight the idea, yet again, that immigration is not the real problem.

I'm not talking about curing every problem. I'm talking about stemming the tide.

So I think a major reduction goes a lot farther than touting ultimate fixes.

Of course jobs are still the goal, and i'm not talking about 0% unemployment...but I am saying that employment is LESS of a problem among citizens when theres no one there to undercut citizens for those same positions.

you can't have a situation with estimates of 30 MILLION illegal immigrants fam. NO other nation does business this way.

 

[theworldismine13]

I feel like you are grossly misinterpreting what I'm saying.

Folks are crossing the border because employment opportunities are slim to none back home and better here. But for people here employment opportunities are becoming scarce as well. So for those countries as well as ours the best course of action is to increase employment within one's borders. If people are trying to border jump you are too late. It's like trying to stop crime with tougher policing. Curing symptoms won't fix underlying causes.

Laws won't increase investments in countries that have no money to invest. If the countries had money they could employ their people, and those people wouldn't be border jumping. Only countries in NA with money to invest are the US, Canada and Mexico- all of which have their own employment issues that take priority. US money building factories in Mexico is jobs leaving the US. That's a net zero solution. I wasn't talking about people here sending money back, though it is documented that many poor countries' economies depend heavily on foreign inflows between relatives.

Bottom line, you want less illegal immigration into the US, you have to give the folks trying to get in a reason not to leave their countries in the form of political stability, low crime and gainful employment. Those things can't be created by writing a law. If it were that simple it would have been done already.

i dont think im grossly misinterpreting because you arent really saying anything or saying obvious things

of course illegal immigration would be less of a problem if countries were politically stable, had low crime and gainful employment....whats your point? is this suppose to be news?

i would assume we all recognize that and we can move to discussing actual solutions not simply repeating what the problem is

my point is that the fundamental difference between a so called first world country and a third world country is the rule of law and the financial legal framework in the country, those are the basic things you need to create financial prosperity and financial stability

the capital markets operate worldwide, and it goes wherever it sees a profit, it has nothing to do with how much money a country actually has. but to attract investments they country has to have a proper legal framework and the more adherence there is to the rule of law the more investment it will receive. so laws have everything to do with investment

for local business things like how long it takes to register a formal business and the easy of doing business is a fundamental factor in economic development, and those again have to do with laws and legal frameworks

so for countries to increase their levels of capital investment and local entrepreneurship poor countries should change the laws. Creating modern legal frameworks and adherene to the rule of law are key

and that is why i said that the real key to addressing this issue is by creating agreements with the various countries to create a freer market for goods, services and labor, until agreements are hashed out the us should continue deporting people and enforcing its immigration laws, this is a gradual process that would take years

your post just exposes how empty the amnesty crowd is, you have no real ideas aside from giving amnesty to illegal aliens and creating more chaos at the border and less rule of law

its nutty how you guys dont realize that countries can increase investment and increase jobs and business simply by charging their laws, no wonder you guys are stuck on amnesty

 

[theworldismine13]

You can't really expect this to happen can you? Even the playing field between Mexico and the US? Do you understand how vastly different the two countries are? Me and you have danced this dance before and I stick to my original argument AND my original suggestions.

Quick summary in case you forgot
1. Make coming to the USA LEGAL but, make it cost people 2k a year to live here (they already pay that to coyotes)
2. They MUST be identified via licenses, and ID.
3. Children born here by people under this new immigration program do not get american citizen status until they have been here for 5 years.
4. Must pay income taxes, are not eligible for a tax refund.
5. Must have a job, 2 month window to find a new job if you lose your old job.
6. No violent criminals
7. Penalties on businesses hiring illegals should be astronomical. AND build in a whistle blowing program where people can BECOME citizens or have time reduced on path to citizenship if they turn in businesses. (new idea, still in its infancy in terms of reward)
9. Federal assistance capped at 2 months, and only eligible if you've been here 6 months. In other words you can get emergency assistance
10. Create a path to citizenship. Maybe 5 years and you become quasi, like you no longer have to pay the 2k a year. 10 Years and you can test to become a citizen.

The point being capitalize on a problem with no real tenable solution. Make your weakness a strength and such.

yeah i understand how different they are, and?

your solution is just amnesty and will just create a new wave of illegal aliens

the solution to illegal immigration lies in the government policies of mexico and in latin america, it doesnt lie in us government policy

 

[live it to the limit]

I don't really get how people have a problem with Mexicans when less than 300 years ago at least 35% of America was Mexico. Where are they supposed to go. And as far as crime, I had a teacher in high school tell us that most immigrant "crime" was from Eastern European immigrants.

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

I'm not talking about curing every problem. I'm talking about stemming the tide.

So I think a major reduction goes a lot farther than touting ultimate fixes.

Of course jobs are still the goal, and i'm not talking about 0% unemployment...but I am saying that employment is LESS of a problem among citizens when theres no one there to undercut citizens for those same positions.

you can't have a situation with estimates of 30 MILLION illegal immigrants fam. NO other nation does business this way.

So whats your solution? Kick em out and "get tough" like there isn't another 30 million on the way

Aint u a scientist? Biochemist? How are you not seeing how ineffective the solutions you propose are?

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

yeah i understand how different they are, and?

your solution is just amnesty and will just create a new wave of illegal aliens

the solution to illegal immigration lies in the government policies of mexico and in latin america, it doesnt lie in us government policy

No, the solution to illegal immigration is the elimination of the incentive to illegally immigrate. Again, political stability and economic opportunity can't just be written into law. We can't do it here, no way can they do that in conflict torn 3rd world countries.

Your stance is about as silly as saying the key to reducing crime is to make punishments tougher. Someone willing to kill somebody or sell drugs doesn't give a fukk about the law, regardless of how tough they are. Similarly an migrant looking for better opportunities doesn't give a shyt what barriers are in the way.

 

[theworldismine13]

No, the solution to illegal immigration is the elimination of the incentive to illegally immigrate. Again, political stability and economic opportunity can't just be written into law. We can't do it here, no way can they do that in conflict torn 3rd world countries.

Your stance is about as silly as saying the key to reducing crime is to make punishments tougher. Someone willing to kill somebody or sell drugs doesn't give a fukk about the law, regardless of how tough they are. Similarly an migrant looking for better opportunities doesn't give a shyt what barriers are in the way.

actually the only way to get political stability and economic opportunity is through the rule of law and having proper laws, the fact that you dont realize this is why you keep parroting amnesty as some type of solution

lets keep it real, you have ZERO ideas on how to create more jobs in mexico, in other words you have no idea on how to solve the problem of illegal immigration except granting amnesty to illegal aliens

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

i dont think im grossly misinterpreting because you arent really saying anything or saying obvious things

of course illegal immigration would be less of a problem if countries were politically stable, had low crime and gainful employment....whats your point? is this suppose to be news?

i would assume we all recognize that and we can move to discussing actual solutions not simply repeating what the problem is

my point is that the fundamental difference between a so called first world country and a third world country is the rule of law and the financial legal framework in the country, those are the basic things you need to create financial prosperity and financial stability

the capital markets operate worldwide, and it goes wherever it sees a profit, it has nothing to do with how much money a country actually has. but to attract investments they country has to have a proper legal framework and the more adherence there is to the rule of law the more investment it will receive. so laws have everything to do with investment

for local business things like how long it takes to register a formal business and the easy of doing business is a fundamental factor in economic development, and those again have to do with laws and legal frameworks

so for countries to increase their levels of capital investment and local entrepreneurship poor countries should change the laws. Creating modern legal frameworks and adherene to the rule of law are key

and that is why i said that the real key to addressing this issue is by creating agreements with the various countries to create a freer market for goods, services and labor, until agreements are hashed out the us should continue deporting people and enforcing its immigration laws, this is a gradual process that would take years

your post just exposes how empty the amnesty crowd is, you have no real ideas aside from giving amnesty to illegal aliens and creating more chaos at the border and less rule of law

its nutty how you guys dont realize that countries can increase investment and increase jobs and business simply by charging their laws, no wonder you guys are stuck on amnesty

Bro, gangs are killing girls off in El Salvador.

How do you expect such a country to maintain a "legal framework" when they can't even stop people from assassinating women in broad daylight?

A law is nothing without the ability to enforce it, and between these kinds of gangs and the narcos it's clear Central American countries can't enforce laws. So what the fukk would more laws do?

Yes, my point is obvious because it's simple and correct. Stabilize these countries, get their economies going, people will stop fleeing and immigrating into the US illegally. If we have to help with that cool, but that will take a lot more than bullshyt protectionist tariffs and photo op trade agreements

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

actually the only way to get political stability and economic opportunity is through the rule of law and having proper laws, again the fact that you dont realize is why you keep parroting amnesty as some type of solution

lets keep it real, you have ZERO ideas on how to create more jobs in mexico, in other words you have no idea on how to solve the problem of illegal immigration except granting amnesty to illegal aliens

Where have I parroted amnesty? We have to protect our borders and we can't have these people here coming as they please.

But if you think xenophobia and legal frameworks countries have no means of enforcing is the solution you are an idiot.

Why is it that we have problems with illegal immigration from the south, but not the north? It's not because of "legal frameworks". It actually has nothing to do with immigration or trade policy at all. Canada is a stable, safe, economically solvent country. People up there have no reason to come down here illegally.

 

[theworldismine13]

Bro, gangs are killing girls off in El Salvador.

How do you expect such a country to maintain a "legal framework" when they can't even stop people from assassinating women in broad daylight?

A law is nothing without the ability to enforce it, and between these kinds of gangs and the narcos it's clear Central American countries can't enforce laws. So what the fukk would more laws do?

Yes, my point is obvious because it's simple and correct. Stabilize these countries, get their economies going, people will stop fleeing and immigrating into the US illegally. If we have to help with that cool, but that will take a lot more than bullshyt protectionist tariffs and photo op trade agreements

of course these countries cant enforce their laws, because essentially there is no rule of law

the rule of law is not just a phrase its a concept and its something that has to be part of the culture for it to work Rule of law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i think everybody can agree that there is no rule of law in these countries or at least a lot less than on other countries

i think the point you are not understanding is that there is no other path toward fixing an economy or jailing murderers other than the rule of law, its not something that comes after, it comes before

the Rule of law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia rule of law is the fundamental reason why the mexican/central american economies and american economies are vastly different

so imo the only real issue is how do you spread the rule of law south of the border, you do that by engaging in bilateral agreements with these countries about goods, services and labor

unlike most people i actually defend nafta, because despite some negative consequences in the beginning on both sides of theborder it has caused the mexican economy to modernize and it has increased jobs and investment into mexico and that is why mexican migration both legal and illegal is slowing

and overall that is the real solution to this problem, creating agreements between countries to create common legal frameworks and expand the rule of law

 

[theworldismine13]

Where have I parroted amnesty? We have to protect our borders and we can't have these people here coming as they please.

But if you think xenophobia and legal frameworks countries have no means of enforcing is the solution you are an idiot.
Why is it that we have problems with illegal immigration from the south, but not the north? It's not because of "legal frameworks". It actually has nothing to do with immigration or trade policy at all. Canada is a stable, safe, economically solvent country. People up there have no reason to come down here illegally.

oh you havent parroted amnesty? so what do you think should be done with the 11 million illegal aliens?

and what are your specific ideas to stabilize these countries?

both canada and the us are former british colonies, they have the same basic legal framework, that is why their economies are similar, so actually it is because of the "legal framework"

you dont create a world class economy or pour money into a country and THEN create a proper legal framework, if that worked haiti would be a paradise

the proper way to develop an eocnomy is to develop a legal framework for employment and doing business and then you pour money into the economy, the fact that you dont understand this explains your lack of ideas

FYI saying we need to "stabilize a country" is not a real idea its just an empty statement unless you specify the actually steps that need to be taken

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

Lol. There is more to the US & Canada's stability and economic prowess than "legal frameworks". And again, a "legal framework" means jack shyt without the means to enforce it. Drug trafficking and murder are not legal in those countries. And yet, they are rampant there. Hell, murder is not legal HERE. And yet our inner cities are inundated. And we have a huge legal framework and aggressive justice system to enforce those laws. So what are you talking about?

Laws require enforcement, which require resources (MONEY). Without those resources, no legal framework will do jack shyt. And those countries don't have them. Often it's more profitable for law enforcement to live off bribes than salaries. (Taking bribes is illegal there too ;) ) Laws only work when they can be enforced.... it's a very simple concept I'm surprised you don't understand.

No, I don't have any specific ways to develop these economies.... outside of a general knowledge of the issues they face I don't know what they have going on with regard to exports and economic activity. But I do know that writing more laws in a country that can't even enforce the laws it already has probably won't do shyt... I've seen that here

 

[theworldismine13]

Lol. There is more to the US & Canada's stability and economic prowess than "legal frameworks". And again, a "legal framework" means jack shyt without the means to enforce it. Drug trafficking and murder are not legal in those countries. And yet, they are rampant there. Hell, murder is not legal HERE. And yet our inner cities are inundated. And we have a huge legal framework and aggressive justice system to enforce those laws. So what are you talking about?

Laws require enforcement, which require resources (MONEY). Without those resources, no legal framework will do jack shyt. And those countries don't have them. Often it's more profitable for law enforcement to live off bribes than salaries. (Taking bribes is illegal there too ;) ) Laws only work when they can be enforced.... it's a very simple concept I'm surprised you don't understand.

No, I don't have any specific ways to develop these economies.... outside of a general knowledge of the issues they face I don't know what they have going on with regard to exports and economic activity. But I do know that writing more laws in a country that can't even enforce the laws it already has probably won't do shyt... I've seen that here

actually no there isnt more to the us and canada's stability and economic prowess than the legal frameworks and the concept of the rule of law they inherited from england, the lack of the rule of law starting from the days of the spanish empire is why a lot of latin american countries fell behind the us and canada even though in the beginning they were actually richer and had more resources

i would recommend this book, if you require further elaboration on how differing legal frameworks and basis of power lead to prosperity or lack of prosperity in post colonial countries

and again the rule of law isnt just a phrase, its a concept and has to be part of the culture, there is no rule of law in a lot latin american countries and there is no rule of law in american cities with high murder rates, you cannot have a rule of law when laws are applied arbitrarily and individual rights arent respected and the citizens dont have a culture to respect the law

and of course you have real ideas, thats obvious, everybody knows the issues these countries face, you arent saying anything, the issue is solutions

the money for governments to operate come from rewriting their tax laws to increase government revenue and by reforming business laws to make it easier to open and operate business, that is why my suggestion is to start with agreements with these countries concerning goods and services and labor, that is where you start developing the rule of law and creating wealth, and those are legal frameworks that are enforced by international law not by local whims

but feel free to elaborate on other factors besides "legal frameworks" that led to us and canadian prosperity and feel free to elaborate on your non amnesty ideas on what to do with the 11 million illegal aliens

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

but feel free to elaborate on other factors besides "legal frameworks" that led to us and canadian prosperity and feel free to elaborate on your non amnesty ideas on what to do with the 11 million illegal aliens

Gladly, once you can explain to me how a legal framework will do anything if a country cannot enforce laws it already has, in your own words. IOW if I ask you a question, telling me to go read a 600+ page book is not an answer. If that were truly a prerequisite for participation seems pretty stupid to have waited until now to say so.

 

[AyahuascaSippin]

All this talk about mexico being a shytty country, but im guessin pointing to their largest gold reserves and huge chunks of land being forcefully removed by america is digging too far in the past right?

How about the PROVEN cia involvement in the creation of the mexican intelligence agencies which employed known assets that in turn provided full support, transport and govt identification to mexican drug cartels?

How about fukk nationalism in regards to a recently stolen country built on the bodies of natives, which then sought instability, control and destruction of the neighbors which bared witness to its grotesque creation?

Too far in the past for you? Well then fukk you and deal with the consequences you basic minded inhumane a$$holes