I had to put this up top because it shows how much this is getting into your emotions.
Did you forget what the whole thread is about? Do you need to look at the thread title again? The issue discussed in my comment was whether Lebron deserved the MVP in 2011 over Rose..
I realize what this thread is centered around. I only quoted your post to point out your statement of Rose being a liability on defense as being false. If I had a problem with all your other points, I would've quoted and addressed them. But I didn't. The insecurities of a LeBron stan aside, why did you feel the need to shift the argument?
Did you forget order of events again? YOU posted the context-less defensive stats in an attempt to prop up Rose. I simply pointed out that if we're going to use context-less defensive stats as our measure, then Lebron clearly wins that argument.
Individual defensive stats (overall defensive PPP, iso defensive PPP, spot up defensive ppp P&R ballhandler and roll man stats) are a better measurement of one's defensive impact/ability than team defensive stats (defensive rating, defensive plus minus). I used those stats to PROVE he wasn't a liability. I suggest you look up the definition and get back to me.
Now, if we're saying that the numbers are distorted by who we're playing with, then who is going to win that argument? The guy whose defensive numbers are propped up by playing in Thibs' defensive system and surrounded by above-average defensive players at every position? Or the guy playing in Spolstra's defensive system who has to make up for having 2-3 average-or-worse defensive players on the court with him at all times?
The point is, Rose was NOT a liability to his team on defense; in relation to winning MVP and as a standalone. Was he aided by his teammates on defense? Absolutely (as is every PG in the league), but he most definitely was not a liability. There's a stark difference between the two. You should've done a better job at phrasing your statement - something along the lines of LeBron was more important or had more defensive impact than Rose did during that season - not deem Rose as a liability.
I'm not "shifting the argument". The whole argument from the beginning has been who deserved MVP in 2011, Lebron or Rose.
Are you that agenda driven that you can't address individual points properly without going on an unrelated tangent?
And what I said was that Rose was the biggest liability on the team on defense. I later shifted that to acknowledge that Boozer may have actually been the biggest liability, although he did play 40% fewer minutes. And no matter what you've tried to toss out, you've still only been making my argument for me. Other than Boozer, who was a bigger liability on defense for that team? Bogans? Brewer? Deng? Gibson? Noah? Asik? Thomas?.
Not only do you have a strange interpretation of etymology (Why does Rose have to be ruled as a liability? Why can't you just say he wasn't as good as some of the other defenders? A liability is implying he either didn't show enough effort, focus, have the ability or contribute anything defensively to the team). The only
real liabilities on that team that played meaningful minutes that season were Boozer and Korver.
Even if we take a surface defensive measurement like blocks - if you went through each season's stats, you wouldn't be able to find a PG who averaged the most blocks, who was a liability to their team's defense.
Why do you have this weird obsession with thinking that you can force me to argue the argument YOU want to have, rather than the point I was actually making?
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I'm forcing you to acknowledge that your assessment on Rose's role, ability and impact on defense in '10/'11 is wrong. I don't particularly care on what you have to say about LeBron, as most of the time it's usually re-runs of LeBron stan talking points. This is another problem of yours, you either ignore the details or you fill in the blanks to push your agenda. Then you get all defensive and start pointing to the end of your third act, as if it makes sense and sounds reasonable on some deus ex machina type shyt.
Like I said above, it would've been better for you to say that LeBron had more defensive impact, and played more of a defensive role on his respective team, than Rose did. You didn't even call him a liability based on watching him play, I can tell you all you did was look a bunch of articles and looked at a few stats during when the MVP talk was heating up and made your conclusion from there.
I made the point. You replied to me. If you don't want to argue who the MVP of the 2011 season was, then don't reply to my comment about the MVP of the 2011 season.
You do NOT get to put up the parameters on what I reply to. You fukked up with your comment on Rose, what's so hard and admitting you were wrong?
1. You haven't shown convincing evidence that Rose was the best starting PG on defense that season. You put out some stats, and then acknowledge that those stats need context...and the clear context is that Rose benefited from the best defensive system in the entire NBA and a roster stocked with guys who were better at and more committed to defense than himself.
All stats need context - you haven't been able to provide any context whatsoever on why you said Rose was a liability on defense during that season. I didn't bring up those stats to necessarily show he was arguably the best, I brought them up to show you that he wasn't a liability. Even through all the noise of the more context-laden ones (ball-handler PPP and overall PPP), being #1 in isolation PPP and #2 in spot up PPP is more than enough to prove a player isn't a liability on that end.
With all the isolation situations he guarded (which were mostly PGs, from the bottom to the elite), he came on top that season - out of every starting PG.
Rose was a poor defender in 2009-10. He went from a 109.1 Drtg w/out Thibs to a 102.7 Drtg the very next year with him, and was back up to a 109.2 Drtg again this year without him. (By comparison, Lebron has NEVER had worse than a 104.6 Drtg in any season in his entire 13-year career, no matter how good or bad his team was, who his coaches were, or who his teammates were) By what miracle do you think Rose jumped from well below-average to "best in the NBA" in a single season? What I can see is that his coach's defensive schemes were amazing, the defensive talent he was surrounded with was amazing.
You don't use DRTG to gauge one's defensive ability, it's not an individual based metric. It's the defensive rating the team has when a specific player is on the floor. How many times do I need to say this before it gets through to you? Second of all, you can't use DRTGs of two players who play two different positions - especially if one of them is a PG.
And this is all a pointless argument anyway...who besides you decided to compare Rose to other starting point guards? To see whether Rose deserved MVP over Lebron, his contributions should be compared to those of his teammates, especially his own backup, or to Lebron. Unless one of those other starting PGs is a threat to deserve the MVP that year.
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I compared him to other starting PGs, to show you how effective he was on defense in relation to his peers who played the same position. If you felt he was a liability on that end, than that would mean every other starting PG would be a liability too, would it not? It was to put his defensive PPP on matchup situation into perspective; giving up only 0.77 points per possession on defense doesn't mean shyt if you can't compare it to other players at his position and how effective they are at guarding players in the same situations.
I'd like you to explain how Rose could've been a liability to his team while holding his matchups to 0.77 ppp - better than every other starting PG?
2. Sticking on the perimeter, I had never even heard someone claim that Rose was superior on defense to Deng, Bogans, or Brewer that year. I didn't know that would be a serious argument that anyone considered. Everyone else on that roster was a strong defender already, made even better by Thibs system. Rose was a bad defender who was made average or slightly above-average by Thibs system.
Who the fukk said Rose was superior on defense to Deng, Bogans and Brewer that season? Deng, Bogans and Brewer for starters not only had more defensive versatility, but due to their position had more influence on the defensive end (a PG can only have so much impact - unless they're capable of guarding multiple positions). There's a reason I compared Rose's defensive PPP to other PGs - I used Brewer's defensive PPP as a scale to show that Rose was able to keep his opposite to just as low scoring #s - adding to the notion that he wasn't a liability.
You're assessment on Rose's defensive ability couldn't be further from the truth. Stop regurgitating articles you read.
Rose was 9th on the team in DWS/48 in 2011. Rose was 11th on the team in DBPM. 6th in steal%, 7th in block%, 11th in DRB%.
Context. Context. Context.
That argument makes no sense. Being in a better defensive system and surrounded by better teammates DOES make you better in every one of those categories. No NBA player is actually on a pure one-on-one island, ever.
It makes complete sense, if Rose was a liability to their defense, he would've not ranked as high as he did. This is what you're failing to grasp, if he was a liability - he wouldn't have been #1 in iso situations (which is the closest you'll get to on an island) - in order for him to be #1 or #2 in these individual defensive spots he needs to be at the center of the player (even if aided by teammates) that would rule him out of the running of being a liability to his team.
You do not average the most blocks for a PG: hold opponents to the lowest points per possession in iso situations, lowest points per possession in P&R ball handler situations and second to lowest points per possession in spot up situations and be a liability to your team's defense.
If you can trust your other defenders to have their men cloaked, if you know the rim is protected behind you, if the passing lanes are all filled, if the paint is packed - all those things allow you to defend differently and more effectively than if that's not the case. Someone who constantly has to give help defense, can't trust the rim to be protected, works in a less-effective defensive system with less-effective switching, is put out on an island in space more often - their numbers are going to be worse. Everything that limits your opponents' options makes life easier on you and improves your efficiency numbers.
You say this shyt, but you use DRTG to gauge one's defensive ability? shyt is like the Twilight Zone.
All those PPP stats are helped if you man is swarmed even when he gets by you. You can't say that a single one of those numbers isn't affected by being in a better defensive scheme and with better teammates. You can't say that Rose didn't have a decisive schematic advantage that distorted his contribution in comparison to PG's on other teams in every case.
No, not all those PPP stats are helped if they get by Rose - they're the situation he's guarding - if they get by him then they're credited to the player who defends the shot. All defensive stats are affected by scheme and personnel. A PG needs more help than any other position; of course Rose was aided by his teammates and Thibs' principles on defense. When have I even alluded to that it hasn't?
Rose played heavy minutes with Boozer (who had statistically horrible rim protection, P&R coverage and was well below average in most PPP situations) - here Rose played with a player who not only was an actual liability to the team's defense, but the other three starters (Noah, Deng and Bogans) weren't nearly good enough to not only cover up Boozer's mistakes but also cover up Rose's and aid him to the point where he statistically was the best amongst starting PGs. It was simply not possible.
Whenever Boozer was on the court, it made every Bulls player's life that much harder on defense - particularly guards like Rose in P&R situations and big men who had to worry about Boozer's man.
You're totally obsessed with comparing Rose's numbers favorably to other point guards, and acting like that somehow proves something in comparison to his other teammates. My point was that his TEAMMATES were more effective defenders than him.
Nah, that's NOT what you said - for starters SGs, SFs, PFs and Cs in general are more effective defenders, simply based off position. Second of all, his teammates can still be more effective defenders, yet that doesn't make Rose a liability - it just means he's not as effective as others. Deng wasn't as effective as Noah on defense that season, it doesn't mean Deng was a liability. It just means Noah was better and had more impact because he was the anchor.
How many Bulls games did you actually watch that season?
. Theses threads are just a circle jerk of Lebron stans that realize his window is closing
