I re-open the debate: How many MVPs should LeBron James have?

[Professor Emeritus]

And I could easily link a dozen articles from that time period up through the end of the season which state that Rose didn't deserve the MVP because he still was not elite on the defensive end.

Even that article admits that Rose had just been a "defensive sieve" the year before, then quotes a bunch of team-based stats to try to make the point that Rose must not be that bad anymore. (Ignoring that his numbers were still worse than those of his teammates.) If you still don't understand how heavily PPP is affected by the team defense around you, then I can't help you. You seem to rely on that to a ridiculous degree.

Lebron was a more effective scorer, a more effective rebounder, an equally effective passer, and a more effective defender than Rose that year. He came out ahead of Rose in literally every offensive and defensive advanced stat too. He carried an almost equal burden to Rose on the offensive end more efficiently, while carrying a heavier and more difficult burden on the defensive end. And when they went mano-a-mano at the end of season, he showed how much more important he was at every aspect of the game, especially defense - he could stop Rose, and Rose could do nothing to stop him (or anyone else who mattered on Miami). He could carry a team in the 4th even against Chicago's elite defense, while Rose couldn't get it done in the 4th even against Miami's inferior defense (other than the suffocating defense of Lebron). He deserved the MVP, and if it wasn't for Thibs' coaching, voter fatigue, and The Decision which made EVERYONE anti-Lebron that year, Lebron would have been holding it up.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

And I could easily link a dozen articles from that time period up through the end of the season which state that Rose didn't deserve the MVP because he still was not elite on the defensive end.

What about the ones that say he didn't deserve it because he was a liability, and provided the right context and statistical data to back it up?

Even that article admits that Rose had just been a "defensive sieve" the year before, then quotes a bunch of team-based stats to try to make the point that Rose must not be that bad anymore. (Ignoring that his numbers were still worse than those of his teammates.) If you still don't understand how heavily PPP is affected by the team defense around you, then I can't help you. You seem to rely on that to a ridiculous degree.

How can you say his numbers (I'm assuming you mean defensive rating?) were worse than his teammates', then in the next breath say I don't understand how heavily PPP is affected by the team defense around a player - after not only I already stated all defensive related stats are context-heavy (clearly you skipped over that part) but defensive rating is affected A LOT more by the personnel you're on court with.

Iso PPP, spot up PPP, P&R ball-handler PPP - individual defensive stats, which granted do need the proper context attached, but they do paint clearer picture of one's defensive ability than team defensive rating does - which is what you're using. You keep bringing up his team defensive rating, when that is ALL about the players he plays with, at least when referencing his individuals stats, you get a better idea of how good he is defensively.

A
Lebron was a more effective scorer, a more effective rebounder, an equally effective passer, and a more effective defender than Rose that year. He came out ahead of Rose in literally every offensive and defensive advanced stat too. He carried an almost equal burden to Rose on the offensive end more efficiently, while carrying a heavier and more difficult burden on the defensive end. And when they went mano-a-mano at the end of season, he showed how much more important he was at every aspect of the game, especially defense - he could stop Rose, and Rose could do nothing to stop him (or anyone else who mattered on Miami). He could carry a team in the 4th even against Chicago's elite defense, while Rose couldn't get it done in the 4th even against Miami's inferior defense (other than the suffocating defense of Lebron). He deserved the MVP, and if it wasn't for Thibs' coaching, voter fatigue, and The Decision which made EVERYONE anti-Lebron that year, Lebron would have been holding it up.

WHAT THE fukk ARE YOU DOING? How many times do I need to tell you stop with this shyt?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

@The Dankster

Since you seem to be an expert on how Synergy does its defensive individual stats, I'd like you to tell me how they do all their situation (ball-handler, iso, spot up) stats.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Now the argument has shifted from 'Rose was the Bulls' biggest liability on defense' to 'Rose was still not elite on the defensive end'. Does anybody wanna tell this dude there's a HUGE margin between being elite and being a liability?

 

[Cadillac]

@Z-Bo's Deep Thoughts cant speak for rest of bull fans but as a bulls fan


Dont lnow why you spending so much time on Dankster tho

All that nikka does is put stats up with no context behind them and thinks hes right

nikka using DRTG

Like u said bruh stans r brain dead

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Follow the thread, Cadillac. If you think no-context defensive stats are the issue, then take it up with Z-Bo's Deep Thoughts. He posted context-less defensive stats well before I did.

The ONLY reason I posted any of those stats, as I explained when I did it, was to prove that if you relied on context-less defensive stats, they make the opposite argument of the one Z-Bo wanted to make. I had already made my argument without those stats, and I only brought them in to demonstrate how selective and misguided his use of defensive stats was.

Ya'all performing mental gymnastics, trying to shout out "My context-less defensive stats are better than your context-less defensive stats!" even when the EXACT problems with your stats have already been pointed out.




Here's the case without any defensive stats at all.

1. As much as Derrick Rose improved on defense in 2010-11, he was still the guy who had been a sieve the previous year, and he was NOT as good a defender as Lebron James. Even with all the negative publicity Lebron had got from The Decision, he was still 1st-team All-Defensive that year (#2 in 1st-team votes among all players), while Rose didn't make either team. He still finished top-10 in DPOY voting, while Rose didn't get a single vote. And....the ECF. I have never, ever heard anyone claim that Derrick Rose was a better defensive player than Lebron James, and certainly not in 2010-11.

2. On top of his better skill as a defender, he was more important to his team's defensive scheme than Rose was. Lebron was absolutely the most important defender on Miami, without any doubt. Rose was not the most important defender on the Bulls, not even one of the most 5 important, and Z-Bo has already admitted that he wasn't as effective on defense as several of the Bulls' other players.

3. Lebron was equally important to his team on offense, and more effective on offense, than Rose was.

4. Most important on offense + Most important on defense = MVP. Most important on offense + a "cog" on a good defense = runner-up.


That's the whole argument. Z-bo went apeshyt writing 1500 word essays because I used the phrase "biggest liability" to simply mean "weaker link", and I already took that back ages ago. But ya'all so wrapped up in fandom that you can't see through the blood that welled up in your eyes.



I'll close the argument with a detailed breakdown on tape highlighting each players' strengths and weaknesses:

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Follow the thread, Cadillac. If you think no-context defensive stats are the issue, then take it up with Z-Bo's Deep Thoughts. He posted context-less defensive stats well before I did..

More lies from you. You mentioned this before I brought up any defensive stat -

Bulls had a higher defensive rating when Rose was off the court than when he was on it.
.

That is you bringing up defensive stats without the proper context, before I did.

Just admit that you didn't watch enough Bulls games that season to form a reasonable opinion about his defensive play, and leave it at that.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

The ONLY reason I posted any of those stats, as I explained when I did it, was to prove that if you relied on context-less defensive stats, they make the opposite argument of the one Z-Bo wanted to make. I had already made my argument without those stats, and I only brought them in to demonstrate how selective and misguided his use of defensive stats was.

Yet you're the one who initially brought defensive stats into the argument to begin with - referencing what the Bulls defensive rating was when Rose was off the court. You didn't have an argument without those stats, because you literally started your argument off with A DEFENSIVE STAT.

Ya'all performing mental gymnastics, trying to shout out "My context-less defensive stats are better than your context-less defensive stats!" even when the EXACT problems with your stats have already been pointed out.

First of all, I gave context to my stats, you just didn't read properly. Second of all, if you actually knew how to use stats properly, you wouldn't be using defensive rating as casually as you're doing for a player's defensive ability. I think you need to stick to the standard box score, anything beyond that and you're drowning.

 

[Cadillac]

Got the nikka on ignore

But i did read that post before i put him on it


@Z-Bo's Deep Thoughts been owning ur ass nikka. And ur previous post as well as this recent one is proving my point

Ur all stats no context.

U lost nikka, collect ur L and keep it

 

[Cadillac]

Dankster dont even watch games he watches the box scores

 

[Professor Emeritus]

You're right, I did allude to a defensive stat. But what you cut out of that quote is that I DID provide the context.

Bulls had a higher defensive rating when Rose was off the court than when he was on it.

The Bulls had Deng, Brewer, and Bogans all playing incredible defense on the perimeter within Thibs' fantastic scheme. And then they had Noah to clean up behind them, with Gibson and Thomas being plus defenders in their roles as well.

Do you or Cadilac even know what "context-less" means? I provided the exact context - the Bulls had a higher defensive rating when Rose was off the court than when he was on it because Deng, Brewer, and Bogans were all playing incredible defensive on the perimeter, Thibs had a fantastic scheme, Noah was cleaning up, and Gibson/Thomas were plus defenders in their roles.

I gave you the stat that backed up my argument and explained exactly why it mattered - Rose was not the most effective defender on his own team, which you and I agree on.


You then went hog-wild listing numbers from that season without ONCE giving the context for them. You said they were "context-heavy", but didn't ever say what that context was or what effect it had. I'm the one who had to later point that out - that the numbers were a direct result of Thibs system and having plus-defenders all around him, and explained exactly how that led to those effects that you were trying to pass off with context-less stats. Once again, I provided the context, while the only "context" you've provided this whole time is the statement "there is context".

You still haven't explained how Derrick Rose having a lower defensive rating than his teammates doesn't show that he is not the most essential defender on his own team. You still haven't explained how Lebron James's great defensive numbers across the board aren't an accurate reflection of the fact that he was one of the better defensive players in the league that year. You just keep yelling "contextless!", without once bothering to explain how the actual context would change anything.

Now you're running with the random "you must not watch the games!" argument. Again, a random insult without context. What does watching the games show? That Derrick Rose was a better defender than his teammates? No..... That Derrick Rose was a better defender than Lebron? No..... That Derrick Rose was a more essential defensive cog for his team than Lebron? No....

You two can only keep shouting "He must not watch the games" without explaining what watching the games disproves about the argument.

And there's a good reason for that. Because whether we delve into the context or not, no matter how many games we watch, the argument I made about their relative defensive value is true, and you know it. Rose was not the most important or the most effective defensive player on his own team, and Lebron was both a more important defensive player for his team and an objectively better defender that season.

 

[1thouwow]

Harden

Nah Westbrook