If Aaliyah was still here, do you think she would be the best female artist in R&B/Pop right now?

[JustCKing]

She had that because their sound opened the door for her to become what she was when that album dropped. The same way jimmy Jam and terry Lewis set up Janet. That's what I Mean by a product of, their work with her set her back atop a platform. If the one I gave my heart to was the lead single, she wouldn't have captured an audience the way she did with hot like fire. Look at Ginuwine's, missy, playa, Nicole wray, tweet - all hit out the gate with that timb/missy sound. It was their time, being on the squad got you looks

Edit: they also didn't have another female on the squad who looked like Aaliyah. You see how timbaland was able to push nelly furtado to number one. You're understating their effect.

They didn't open up the door for her. They gave her a new sound. She was already established. I could see if it was her debut, but it wasn't. She already had hits and classics before OIAM. "The One I Gave My Heart To" doesn't sound like a lead single. It wouldn't have made sense because most of the album sounds nothing like it.

Playa never took off like the rest. Outside of Ginuwine and Missy, the others didn't have the success Aaliyah with Tim and Missy. And to their credit, none of the others were able to sustain a career outside of their work with Timbaland/Missy.

 

[I love Latina women]

Got it, we have the same stance on the whole thing.

Cool

 

[steadyrighteous]

This idea that Aaliyah was going to be some type of movie star is laughable. I mean there are accomplished trained black actresses who are having hard time getting roles in racist ass hollywood

People are really saying shyt like "She was in a movie with Jet Li and DMX!" like Jet Li and DMX are Daniel Day Lewis and Denzel Washington.

I've just read 11 pages of nikkas doing backflips trying to convince themselves that she'd be Lupita Nyongo'o when more than likely she'd be fighting for a recurring role on Being Mary Jane on BET right now.

@stomachlines you know you're my dude, but:

1. To pretend like Beyoncé isn't a generational and cultural icon on the level of the Whitneys and Madonnas is doing your argument no help. Admitting it or accepting it won't hurt. I literally have no allegiance or fandom to Beyoncé and know this is true. I hate the Kardashians, but for me to say they don't influence young girls would make me look stupid. Just because I don't like it, doesn't make it not so.

2. To disregard the past 15-20 years of data proving that no matter how big you are you're only one misstep or cultural shift away from being washed is also making your argument look bad. People who have sold more records than both Beyoncé and Aaliyah combined are struggling for relevance now, the odds were always against her.

3. You keep crediting Beyoncé and her "team" for her success, disregarding the fact that every single artist has a team. Record labels literally exist for the sole purpose of making nobodies stars, so if it's as simple as a "team", why is it apparently so easy for Beyoncé, but so hard for everybody else?

I'm not saying Beyoncé is a genius, an earth shattering talent or a blessing from God bestowed upon earth for the betterment of society, but for some reason, a confluence of things both tangible and intangible, she's "The One", and trying to disprove it or claim Aaliyah could have stopped it is a needless and pointless task.

 

[Swagnicious]

Why do people treat this woman like she was the Len Bias of R&B

No disrespect to her.....seriously, because nikkas will catch feelings quick off the strength that she's dead. But she was not that good a live singer or performer, and she wouldn't have gotten that much better even after all these years. Her connects would have given her a solid career at best and a few more hits.....nothing more, and certainly not Beyonce-level

 

[JustCKing]

All that was after the beef with Beyonce

My post covers all that. You make it sound like her second album was a dud which it wasn't. Are you trying to deny the hits on her second album too? Rihanna did take her spot that's a fact.

Ciara never had beef with Beyoncé. Again, ya'll let Gossip blogs write narratives that never were. Her career ended up how it did because she came in the game with a sound that was a fad.

The second album wasn't a dud, but it was a far cry from the blockbuster of an album she released a little over 2 years prior. The first album had "Goodies" which went #1. There was "1,2 Step" which was somewhere like 2-5. Then there was the Luda featured "Oh" which I think was another Top 10 smash. None of the songs on her second album reached those heights.

Rihanna's Good Girl Gone Bad sounds nothing like what Ciara was putting out at the time. Two totally different sounds.

 

[tuckgod]

Mary set the tone by being the first female "Hip Hop Soul" artist to rock throwbacks jerseys and combat boots.

SWV followed. There was also Smooth at the time, sho could rap and sing, and her trademark was saggy jeans and her thong being revealed. Many then compared Aaliyah to Smooth.

I always thought Smooth was an ill artist

 

[I love Latina women]

People are really saying shyt like "She was in a movie with Jet Li and DMX!" like Jet Li and DMX are Daniel Day Lewis and Denzel Washington.

I've just read 11 pages of nikkas doing backflips trying to convince themselves that she'd be Lupita Nyongo'o when more than likely she'd be fighting for a recurring role on Being Mary Jane on BET right now.

@stomachlines you know you're my dude, but:

1. To pretend like Beyoncé isn't a generational and cultural icon on the level of the Whitneys and Madonnas is doing your argument no help. Admitting it or accepting it won't hurt. I literally have no allegiance or fandom to Beyoncé and know this is true. I hate the Kardashians, but for me to say they don't influence young girls would make me look stupid. Just because I don't like it, doesn't make it not so.

2. To disregard the past 15-20 years of data proving that no matter how big you are you're only one misstep or cultural shift away from being washed is also making your argument look bad. People who have sold more records than both Beyoncé and Aaliyah combined are struggling for relevance now, the odds were always against her.

3. You keep crediting Beyoncé and her "team" for her success, disregarding the fact that every single artist has a team. Record labels literally exist for the sole purpose of making nobodies stars, so if it's as simple as a "team", why is it apparently so easy for Beyoncé, but so hard for everybody else?

I'm not saying Beyoncé is a genius, an earth shattering talent or a blessing from God bestowed upon earth for the betterment of society, but for some reason, a confluence of things both tangible and intangible, she's "The One", and trying to disprove it or claim Aaliyah could have stopped it is a needless and pointless task.

Whoa whoa whoa! I ain't said or saying she'd be Lupita!
I ain't sitting here trying to act like she was gon be the female Marlon Brando or nothing of that caliber.
But what I was saying was that Aaliyah was making a nice crossover into acting and doing fairly well with acting judging from her 2 movies. That's all. However, 2 movies ain't enough to really predict how 1's acting career might be. With that said, those 2 movies were good.

Yes, EVERY artist has a team. But what I'm saying is this. Beyonce's team's work, is greater than what many of her fans and stans perceive her work as an artist to be. Beyonce isn't the great artist people or many of her stans make her out to be. Can she sing? Yes. Can she dance? Yes. But what I call what she does groundbreaking? Outstanding? Excellent? Great? Nope! This gon hurt a lot of nikkas feelings when I say this, but she's marginal at best. And the only reason Beyonce' seems like a giant in this game is because 2 things:

1. The bar has been lowered and it takes little to no effort to make what's considered a "hit" song or "great" music today. Look around at the shyt that gets a pass today
2. Who else is there right now in R&B? I'm talking bout on a mainstream level. Beyonce is the only BLACK female R&B in the game music game on a MAINSTREAM level. Back in the day, we had powerhouses. You had ya Whitneys, Mariahs, Tonis, and then behind them ya Brandys, Aaaliyahs, Monica, and so on and so on. The game is all fukked up now. Black women in R&B (as well as us Black men) are non existent. Of course Beyonce is gonna be looked at as this giant and "great" when nikkas ain't got nobody else to compare her too. AND especially when MOST and MANY of her fans don't remember a time when in music we had a selection of GREAT R&B singers to listen to and check for on a MAINSTREAM level.

It's easy to be THE ONE when there ain't no competition. You mean to tell me in the last 15 or some years that Beyonce has been "THE ONE" it ain't been nann chick who's got just as much if not more talent than her to come along and be better than her? It's not always the artists fault, sometimes it's the business and the way the game is played.

You my homie too, but I'm just calling the shyt for what it is.

 

[tuckgod]

 

[rtrRaven]

No Thank Timbaland, Missy and the rest of that group for a big part of her success

 

[dora_da_destroyer]

This is the same as saying she would be Beyoncé status had she lived, but it's arguing the opposite. We don't know how that album would've turned out sales wise had she lived. She was already Gold prior to her death just off of one single. "We Need A Resolution" wasn't the runaway hit that "Try Again" was. It was a marginally successful single and she still managed to go Gold in 2001 with 187,000 sold in week 1. How many female R&B singers were doing that in 2001 without huge hits? This was the summer of Alicia Keys' "Fallin" and MJB's "Family Affair" (and Mary was always moving more units than Aaliyah). Alicia and Mary were about the only ones who were doing numbers.

ehh, you're comparing too narrow a window if you're just looking at summer 01...Ashanti was still moving units, I can't remember when brandy's album dropped but she was still a factor, Toni Braxton still mattered (she wasn't in a cycle then) jill Scott, etc. the point for arguing against her is looking at all the other talent from the mid 90's and seeing where they're at. Once we got beyond the 80's, there aren't really people who established decade plus careers. Toni Braxton was immensely bigger than Aaliyah and still fell off by 03, that's the nature of the business aside from a very select few. Aaliyah would not be the best artist in the game as the thread is asking. She doesn't have the talent Beyoncé has nor do I feel she ever connected to as big of an audience as bey (again - I see old ass baby boomers at Beyoncé concerts as well as wide eyed 5/6/7 year olds.

Look at Rihanna, arguably the second biggest (or fighting in that area) Female in pop...definitely if we're keeping it to black females. There is a reason she's considered a tier below Beyoncé despite having strong album sales, better charting singles/single performance (to my recollection), more #1's, and being super influential/bankable...there is just a tent gap that hit songs can't overcome between the two. Aaliyah isn't the artist to beat Bey...between that and the fact that odds simply aren't on her side, it's sillier to argue that she'd be the biggest name in 2016...22 years into a career.

They didn't open up the door for her. They gave her a new sound. She was already established. I could see if it was her debut, but it wasn't. She already had hits and classics before OIAM. "The One I Gave My Heart To" doesn't sound like a lead single. It wouldn't have made sense because most of the album sounds nothing like it.

Playa never took off like the rest. Outside of Ginuwine and Missy, the others didn't have the success Aaliyah with Tim and Missy. And to their credit, none of the others were able to sustain a career outside of their work with Timbaland/Missy.

all those artists had success on their first album, playa wouldn't have gotten a release of not under them...

Aaliyah wasn't established, she was a girl who had hits with r kelly who was all but forgotten by the time she reappeared. People were legit surprised to see her back, that's what I mean by established, they put her on a platform she wasn't on during her debut.

Your debut isn't necessarily what establishes you, it's the point when you start becoming the most successful you. Rihanna is another good example, she had two albums before gggb which I feel is the album where she was actually an established artist.

 

[dora_da_destroyer]

@stomachlines you can't seem to separate the music bey makes with her talent. Beyoncé as a talent stands up against any era, yes, musically we're in an era where lesser songs are accepted, but if bey was working with Janet's team (jimmy jam) Toni's team (baby face) Mary's team (puff etc) she'd have the same strong catalog that was a product of the 80's and 90's

Beyonce's don't just come along and you're doing way too such bringing up her parents like they had any sway in the industry when she was just starting out. He was a dad with a pipe dream and did everything to put his daughter in position.

 

[steadyrighteous]

Whoa whoa whoa! I ain't said or saying she'd be Lupita!
I ain't sitting here trying to act like she was gon be the female Marlon Brando or nothing of that caliber.
But what I was saying was that Aaliyah was making a nice crossover into acting and doing fairly well with acting judging from her 2 movies. That's all. However, 2 movies ain't enough to really predict how 1's acting career might be. With that said, those 2 movies were good.

Yes, EVERY artist has a team. But what I'm saying is this. Beyonce isn't the great artist people or many of her stans make her out to be. Can she sing? Yes. Can she dance? Yes. But what I call what she does groundbreaking? Outstanding? Excellent? Great? Nope! This gon hurt a lot of nikkas feelings when I say this, but she's marginal at best. And the only reason Beyonce' seems like a giant in this game is because 2 things:

1. The bar has been lowered and it takes little to no effort to make what's considered a "hit" song or "great" music today. Look around at the shyt that gets a pass today
2. Who else is there right now in R&B? I'm talking bout on a mainstream level. Beyonce is the only BLACK female R&B in the game music game on a MAINSTREAM level. Back in the day, we had powerhouses. You had ya Whitneys, Mariahs, Tonis, and then behind them ya Brandys, Aaaliyahs, Monica, and so on and so on. The game is all fukked up now. Black women in R&B (as well as us Black men) are non existent. Of course Beyonce is gonna be looked at as this giant and "great" when nikkas ain't got nobody else to compare her too. AND especially when MOST and MANY of her fans don't remember a time when in music we had a selection of GREAT R&B singers to listen to and check for on a MAINSTREAM level.

It's easy to be THE ONE when there ain't no competition. You mean to tell me in the last 15 or some years that Beyonce has been "THE ONE" it ain't been nann chick who's got just as much if not more talent than her to come along and be better than her? It's not always the artists fault, sometimes it's the business and the way the game is played.

You my homie too, but I'm just calling the shyt for what it is.

It's all love, and I don't mind the debate, but this is gonna be my last post (probably) because I honestly don't care that much

But when I said in my previous post that a confluence of intangibles (things you cannot put your finger on) and tangibles (things you can put your finger on) are what make Beyoncé what/who she is, you cannot discount that.

Careers, like life, are only a culmination of all of your previous decisions beforehand, remove one, change one, add one, and things are completely different.

Let's skip her entire childhood, and skip straight to the very end of Destiny's Child/beginning of her solo career:

Crazy in Love - if the first time people ever heard of Beyonce was at age 20-something and Crazy in Love was her first ever song, more than likely she'd be Ashanti status in 2016. Beyonce the solo artist owes her career to Beyonce as part of Destiny's Child. The goodwill, musical, and cultural impact they had as a group is a large part of the reason why she exists as she does today.

When you said "You mean to tell me in the last 15 or some years that Beyonce has been "THE ONE" it ain't been nann chick who's got just as much if not more talent than her to come along and be better than her?" you were right in a way, there have been better dancers and singers than her (and more often than not, one person can't do both), but nobody else has come into the game with 5-10 years of pre-existing quality material and relevance behind them. In a sense Beyonce "interned" in the music industry as 1/3rd of one of the biggest girl groups of all time, and "interned" in the lives of her core fanbase as 1/3rd of a girl group.

Who else has that on their solo resume before their first album? She didn't skip any steps, but she manoeuvred through the "Who this bytch think she is? How does she dress? Can she sing? Can she dance? Who she with?" that a solo artist has to face when they first come out. She didn't have to tell us who she was and spend any time on the "getting to know you" - we already did.

Think of it like this - why do you think people like Ariana Grande, Demi Lovato, Miley Cyrus, Hailiee Steinfeld, Selena Gomez etc. sell as well as they do right out of the gate even if their music if woefully subpar pop? Besides Ariana, they're not the greatest singers, but when they decide to start singing, they have a pre-existing fanbase of girls who watched their TV shows/movies and lived and died for them, and they go from meet and greets at Disney, to buying concert tickets. They have a core of people who are invested in their success, whether they know it or not.

Now none of this is the sole reason for Beyonce's success, but it is one part of the tangible/intangible factors I am referring to that have played into Beyonce's iconic status.

Beyonce is as unique and popular as she is because her life and career story cannot be replicated. From the moment she was on that reality/talent show as a 10 year old or whatever with Kelly Rowland and the other random little girls, she was on a path than no better singer or better dancer could ever have.

Intangibles, breh.

Intangibles.

 

[I love Latina women]

@stomachlines you can't seem to separate the music bey makes with her talent. Beyoncé as a talent stands up against any era, yes, musically we're in an era where lesser songs are accepted, but if bey was working with Janet's team (jimmy jam) Toni's team (baby face) Mary's team (puff etc) she'd have the same strong catalog that was a product of the 80's and 90's

Beyonce's don't just come along and you're doing way too such bringing up her parents like they had any sway in the industry when she was just starting out. He was a dad with a pipe dream and did everything to put his daughter in position.

If you've been reading and really comprehending what I've typed so far in this thread then you'd see I can separate it however her talent also chunks up to how great of a job she can put into her craft. It goes hand in hand.

Beyonce doesn't hold up to Whitney, Mariah or even Toni (Toni' from the early to mid 90s) at all. Get outta here with this bullshyt, lol

Beyonce don't stand up to no Janet. Beyonce ain't got no Rhythm Nation or Control.

Beyonce is a product of over hyped machine and an artist winning due to the low bar set by both us as an audience accepting of music below her actual talent (cause she is talented, she has some talent just not great like MANY perceive) AND timing. She's reigned in a very fickled and water down era, ma'am.

 

[I love Latina women]

It's all love, and I don't mind the debate, but this is gonna be my last post (probably) because I honestly don't care that much

But when I said in my previous post that a confluence of intangibles (things you cannot put your finger on) and tangibles (things you can put your finger on) are what make Beyoncé what/who she is, you cannot discount that.

Careers, like life, are only a culmination of all of your previous decisions beforehand, remove one, change one, add one, and things are completely different.

Let's skip her entire childhood, and skip straight to the very end of Destiny's Child/beginning of her solo career:

Crazy in Love - if the first time people ever heard of Beyonce was at age 20-something and Crazy in Love was her first ever song, more than likely she'd be Ashanti status in 2016. Beyonce the solo artist owes her career to Beyonce as part of Destiny's Child. The goodwill, musical, and cultural impact they had as a group is a large part of the reason why she exists as she does today.

When you said "You mean to tell me in the last 15 or some years that Beyonce has been "THE ONE" it ain't been nann chick who's got just as much if not more talent than her to come along and be better than her?" you were right in a way, there have been better dancers and singers than her (and more often than not, one person can't do both), but nobody else has come into the game with 5-10 years of pre-existing quality material and relevance behind them. In a sense Beyonce "interned" in the music industry as 1/3rd of one of the biggest girl groups of all time, and "interned" in the lives of her core fanbase as 1/3rd of a girl group.

Who else has that on their solo resume before their first album? She didn't skip any steps, but she manoeuvred through the "Who this bytch think she is? How does she dress? Can she sing? Can she dance? Who she with?" that a solo artist has to face when they first come out. She didn't have to tell us who she was and spend any time on the "getting to know you" - we already did.

Think of it like this - why do you think people like Ariana Grande, Demi Lovato, Miley Cyrus, Hailiee Steinfeld, Selena Gomez etc. sell as well as they do right out of the gate even if their music if woefully subpar pop? Besides Ariana, they're not the greatest singers, but when they decide to start singing, they have a pre-existing fanbase of girls who watched their TV shows/movies and lived and died for them, and they go from meet and greets at Disney, to buying concert tickets. They have a core of people who are invested in their success, whether they know it or not.

Now none of this is the sole reason for Beyonce's success, but it is one part of the tangible/intangible factors I am referring to that have played into Beyonce's iconic status.

Beyonce is as unique and popular as she is because her life and career story cannot be replicated. From the moment she was on that reality/talent show as a 10 year old or whatever with Kelly Rowland and the other random little girls, she was on a path than no better singer or better dancer could ever have.

Intangibles, breh.

Intangibles.

Quiet a few legends, bruh bruh

Lionel Richie who was with The Commodores BEFORE hitting it big solo. Hell, Lionel was even bigger AFTER he left the group

Same with Curtis Mayfield. He left the Impressions and had an even bigger career after the fact AND was writing and producing for artists like Aretha and The Staple Singers and many others.

MICHAEL JACKSON! Jackson 5 and THEN Michael Jackson the "King of Pop"

I hear you but it's easy to say "Beyonce was on this path or that path" NOW when you look at where she is in the game today, but NO ONE foresaw this beforehand.

 

[dora_da_destroyer]

If you've been reading and really comprehending what I've typed so far in this thread then you'd see I can separate it however her talent also chunks up to how great of a job she can put into her craft. It goes hand in hand.

Beyonce doesn't hold up to Whitney, Mariah or even Toni (Toni' from the early to mid 90s) at all. Get outta here with this bullshyt, lol

Beyonce don't stand up to no Janet. Beyonce ain't got no Rhythm Nation or Control.

Beyonce is a product of over hyped machine and an artist winning due to the low bar set by both us as an audience accepting of music below her actual talent (cause she is talented, she has some talent just not great like MANY perceive) AND timing. She's reigned in a very fickled and water down era, ma'am.

You saying this proves my point exactly

I'm done, you're delusional