Religion/Spirituality If God has a plan for everyone how do we have freewill?

[gho3st]

why else would you explain your constant pathetic attempts to discredit "agnostic atheists" over the past few weeks? it's certainly not coming from honest, legitimate curiosity, as it's been clearly explained to you over and over again by multiple people, who even went as far as providing you pictures and graphs and shyt. to put it lightly, at minimum, you have an obvious beef with 'non-deists', so stop acting like a bytch and just say what you're really about. and before you even try...no, you're not about logic.

im not about logic? Pathetic attempts? I'm just asking honest questions and can't seem to get one clear, logically sound answer on what this higher learning "agnostic atheist" is. When they try to correct holes in their reasoning, they overlap with other designations that's different from what they've told me agnostic atheist is. I mean for a lot that's always shytting on the irrationality of religionists, you'd expect them to be more logical with what they proclaim right?
dude told me that He knows for sure that gods that they've told him about do not exist. But from a picture he posted on here before, that would make him a close-minded open-minded gnostic agnostic atheist () . Yet he says he was just an agnostic atheist...

 

[tmonster]

Evil policies

God can't stop man's evil policies?

Anyone can make a computer than just does what he wants.

why create person that harms itself and suffers as a consequence? while claiming to love the person

In a broad sense

in any sense?

I believe that anyone who did something as grand as creating space-time, and as small as putting Jesus within it, must have had a purpose for it all. In a slightly more specific sense, the history of the Judeo-Christian religion looks like it's going somewhere. I think it's logical that such a being would have built the best of all possible worlds. So I chose to trust that its all going to end up in His way, to an extent, in the end.

That doesn't mean that He has any particular specific plan for my part of it, or that I can't screw with things and add more sadness and suffering to the world than God would want there to be. I think we all do that.

none of this answers the question and is a massive confirmation bias/circular reasoning

 

[hayesc0]

sorry about double post

 

[hayesc0]

My definition of the right choice for them has to include the choices that are actually before them. If they don't actually have the mental capacity to make a particular choice, then its not even a choice, and therefore isn't even part of this question. Do you have a different question about things that happen outside of a person's choices?

So he doesn't always give us freewill then.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

God can't stop man's evil policies?

If God did, what would be the point of the world? If everyone could do whatever good or evil they wanted to, but it had no effect at all because God just redid everything...then how would good or evil have any meaning anymore?

Imagine the world you're trying to create. If God wanted a bunch of robots, he could have made the kind of world you're alluding to. But since he didn't make robots, we actually can carry out evil policies. If God stopped everything evil, how would we be anything more than mind-controlled little tools? And WTH would be the point of that world?

why create person that harms itself and suffers as a consequence? while claiming to love the personin any sense?

You don't have children, do you?

none of this answers the question and is a massive confirmation bias/circular reasoning

Be more specific. I didn't follow God till I was 19, so you can't blame it all on confirmation bias. I got there somehow, no?

If what you actually mean is that my philosophical statement about the meaning of the universe aren't immediately derivable from agreed-upon first principles...well duh. We all construct our worldviews from our own subjective framework, and no ethical, moral, or philosophical set of beliefs could ever be derived from first principles - it all starts with some sort of assumptions and we work our way from there, atheists or not.

I had some experiences when I was halfway through college that led me to place my bets on God. Spent the first couple years of that investigating everything I could and trying to figure out if I made the right decision, and I revisit the question from time to time. Most of my friends were atheists back then, and I read plenty of philosophy and anti-religion work by atheists, took a few courses, and learned about some other religions too. But the longer I pondered it, the less it made sense that space/time could just pop up out of nothing, that the very existence of the physical universe could even be a reality without something outside the physical universe to bring it about, and that that "something" wouldn't be sentient and purposeful. And within those assumptions, the person of Jesus made a lot more sense and seemed to carry and lot more goodness than anyone I had ever known in my life or read of in history. And as I followed Jesus, he done me well. So I've stayed that path.

Of course, I'm sure there's all sorts of subconscious stuff and developmental impulses that led me to where I am too, that's how we all our because our brains are complex as all get-out. But my dad was heavy agnostic and never even bothered talking about God and I didn't give a crap about ever going to church, reading no Bible, or doing anything any Christian wanted me to do for the first 18 years of my life...so just blaming my faith on my upbringing would be pretty tricky.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

So he doesn't always give us freewill then.

By that do you mean, "We don't each individually have the power to control the world's events ourselves?"

Of course not. We all have limitations. I can't fly just because I want to, I never had a chance to play NFL ball no matter how hard I worked, and I can't get my heart to skip every half-second just so it makes a dope beat. No one ever said that free will is universal, or that we're all clones with the exact same abilities and constraints. We exert our free will within the space we've been given.

 

[hayesc0]

By that do you mean, "We don't each individually have the power to control the world's events ourselves?"

Of course not. We all have limitations. I can't fly just because I want to, I never had a chance to play NFL ball no matter how hard I worked, and I can't get my heart to skip every half-second just so it makes a dope beat. No one ever said that free will is universal, or that we're all clones with the exact same abilities and constraints. We exert our free will within the space we've been given.

you are giving examples of talent and ability not choice lol

 

[Arishok]

I don't understand this analogy please elaborate.

It's like you're comparing the idea of a all powerful God to a typical parent/child relationship.

Trying to make sense of how I always thought of God's will/plan and freewill. Not comparing the two, just giving the best example I could think of that best explained my thought pattern.

 

[tmonster]

If God did, what would be the point of the world?

you see the problem
you have decided to give god an excuse for being omnipotent and benevolent while creating flawed people who suffer in his creation
but maybe people suffer in the world because there is no omnipotent and benevolent god

we are back to the heliocentric vs geocentric planetary system all over again

remember how people once thought the solar system was geocentric but then realized it was heliocentric?
it's hard to fault them because the main test they used to make this assertion was the fact that the sun seemed to fly overhead and come back around the next day to so it over again, so yeah it looks like the sun is going around us. problem is that is exactly the same observation one would make if the earth actually went around the sun, see what I'm getting at?

except my explanation is so much simpler, and consistent with many more objective findings in daily experience

this is no test, this is it, this is life

You don't have children, do you?

I am also not omnipotent
and can't you see how convenient it is that the God to human relationship seems to conveniently mirror the parent to child relationship....why it's almost as if the description of God was written by parents or human beings or something who were describing concepts from their actual lives and not by a deity who knows all of fukking space and time
ironic huh?

Be more specific

you claim to know that god has a plan for every man's life because he created a complex world,

I believe that anyone who did something as grand as creating space-time, and as small as putting Jesus within it, must have had a purpose for it all

answer this below and you will see the circle

why do you believe that he created the world?

 

[Marl0 Stanfield]

It's extremely hard to explain to unbelievers because they think they're the center of the damn universe. They're supposed to be smart but they keep trying to unfold scrolls. Ah fukk it, I'll take a symbolic crack at it.

Here's a piss poor allegory of Christianity and free will:

A guy makes a jelly bean factory with an indestructible and unreachable extension cord from the inside plugged into his brain so that the entire facility and the contents therein are spawned in a basic form from his brain, and then all the contents and the facility itself either refine or degrade one another according to their own plans. But only as long as the facility is plugged into the Factory Owner, whether the facility believes in the Factory Owner or not. The Jelly Beans are the whole reason he built the facility so in order for him to eat the jelly beans or save them in his Special Jar he has to wait for all the jelly beans to get done being prepared.

He has a big barrel outside to collect them and at the end of production of this facility, right before he builds a new facility on top of the old one just to store his prized jelly beans, he'll go to sort them out. The ones he likes he keeps, the ones he doesn't he eats and shyts into a burning pit.

The facility owner has left myriad instructions on how to be formed closest to his desired specifications all over the Factory, but just like a regular job, ppl disregard safety manuals and prep books for whatever reason. The conveyor belt that the beans ride on to the barrel outside is long winding and it forks and divides and goes in loops and all different directions, but it always meets up at the end, just as it is uniform at the beginning. The variations in the conveyor belt are determined by how the beans interact with each other and the facility and the owner.

The owner never comes in the facility,and his voice is just a faint whisper, barely audible to even the beans who fully heed his instructions. His own manual warns that if a jelly bean or a part of the facility tells u to do something other than what's been posted, u'll end up in a fiery pit.

Some jelly beans don't believe the owner specified is the real owner, that it's a different owner. Some don't believe there's an owner at all and think the jelly beans "hearing" an owner is hogwash. They believe the facility is fully automated and earlier jelly beans made up the manuals to keep the facility and its contents under control.

These beans and parts take a broad winding exhilarating path under an illusion of freedom, not realizing that the power they use to operate on their crazy paths is provided by the owner. And that same power transmits communique in an inaudible manner to its chosen jellybeans, and the jelly beans that decide to follow the manuals as well.

Now, all the manuals allude to a special jelly bean coming to save the chosen jelly beans from the tyranny of the unchosen and nonbelievers. Then the chosen jelly beans get to rule over the nonbelievers forever.

Then the day comes for the special jelly bean to arrive, and he does a bunch of magic and miracles and uses his authority as the first among chosen beans to issue a second manual seemingly radically modifying the first.

He is always sure to let the angered chosen beans know that his modifications are based on the true meaning of the first manuals. The ruling chosen beans don't get it, and they get even more incensed when the jelly bean says that he was always in the facility and he is in fact the owner's son, and there's some of the owner in him, and he's been given direct authority over the factory. They destroy the jelly bean but he comes back to the beans that believed his story and followed him.

Before he leaves to chill with his father, the owner, he
tells the beans to tell all the rest of the beans, chosen and unchosen, to believe him before the owner comes for all of them. Those beans spread the message as best they can before they're destroyed as well.

This formulates the 2nd manual that clearly illustrates the final events to come before the return of the magic jelly bean with his owner. For a long time a group of powerful unchosen beans hijack this manual and put out false manuals and instructions that only add to their power. To the believer beans, this represents a counterfeit system aka the Anti Magic Jelly Bean System. This counterfeit system is primarily to blame for the confusion of many jelly beans, who begin to believe this counterfeit system actually represents the true second manual.

Now, all of these events are foretold in the true second manual, and after a while the true second manual is published and disseminated throughout the whole factory. But because of the actions of the Anti Magic Jelly Beans, other beans reject it, especially the chosen beans.

The day comes, after much turmoil amongst the beans, for the owner to come back and collect the beans. The magic bean comes with and its suddenly revealed that he had been there all along as one of the lights in the ceiling of the factory, from the time of creation of the factory. Then the owner does his thing, the new facility is built and the believer beans who followed the true second manual dwell in the new facility with the ruling magic bean and his father, the owner, right there in the facility.

As the smoke from the shyt pit rises up in front of the new facility, the beans ask the owner Why? What's the purpose of this whole thing, everything he's built?

The owner replies that he did it to prove to himself and his other factory owners that seemingly paradoxically he created as well, that he could do it. That he could create jelly beans that looked like him, and had an illusion of free will, without getting angry or bored enough to start over totally with a new facility and contents. He responds like Walter White:
"I did it for me. I liked it."

 

[noon]

If God did, what would be the point of the world? If everyone could do whatever good or evil they wanted to, but it had no effect at all because God just redid everything...then how would good or evil have any meaning anymore?

Imagine the world you're trying to create. If God wanted a bunch of robots, he could have made the kind of world you're alluding to. But since he didn't make robots, we actually can carry out evil policies. If God stopped everything evil, how would we be anything more than mind-controlled little tools? And WTH would be the point of that world?

What was the point of Eden then?

 

[Marl0 Stanfield]

fukking tablet fukked up the font, sorry if its difficult to read.

 

[tmonster]

It's extremely hard to explain to unbelievers because they think they're the center of the damn universe.

holy shyt holy shyt holy shyt holy shyt

this whole thread has been worth it due to this comment
the level of disconnect and hypocrisy necessary to say this shyt, as a believer, proves everything I have ever said about belief and what it takes to be a believer​

 

[gho3st]

It's extremely hard to explain to unbelievers because they think they're the center of the damn universe. They're supposed to be smart but they keep trying to unfold scrolls. Ah fukk it, I'll take a symbolic crack at it.

Here's a piss poor allegory of Christianity and free will:

A guy makes a jelly bean factory with an indestructible and unreachable extension cord from the inside plugged into his brain so that the entire facility and the contents therein are spawned in a basic form from his brain, and then all the contents and the facility itself either refine or degrade one another according to their own plans. But only as long as the facility is plugged into the Factory Owner, whether the facility believes in the Factory Owner or not. The Jelly Beans are the whole reason he built the facility so in order for him to eat the jelly beans or save them in his Special Jar he has to wait for all the jelly beans to get done being prepared.

He has a big barrel outside to collect them and at the end of production of this facility, right before he builds a new facility on top of the old one just to store his prized jelly beans, he'll go to sort them out. ....

 

[Marl0 Stanfield]

holy shyt holy shyt holy shyt holy shyt

this whole thread has been worth due to this comment
the level of disconnect and hypocrisy necessary to say this shyt has a believer proves everything I have ever said about belief and what it takes to be a believer​

I'm talking about people who reject the notion of a power greater than themselves and all they can see. Not people who already believe in some force they can't define. This is also what I keep reiterating. The arrogance and sudden butthurt feelings when ppl think their coc00n of belief is under attack. The funny thing is if I showed you how to make a million dollars in one month you would hang on to every word. This is why emotional objectivity is important if you're engaged in discourse with the intention of learning how another person views existence. You proved what ur acting offended by. You misunderstood my opening statement and then put a blindfold on and started getting emotional. STOP TRYING TO UNFOLD SCROLLS.

If you were trying to learn Chinese from a Chinese immigrant, and the immigrant prefaced a lesson with "I'll try to show u but it's hard cuz Americans don't have a lot of interaction with true Chinese and they're used to their english language being the primary language." And then you flipped out talkin sum "See, that's how all u Chinese act. I can't stand that shyt, fukk y'all." You'd be deemed an idiot, and rightfully so.


nikkas will let Floyd Mayweather beat the living shyt out of them to learn a boxing lesson, then get on a computer and turn into fukking toddlers over how another person expresses their views, even AFTER THEY ASKED THEM THEIR VIEWS AND THE PERSON KNOWS THEY'RE JUST ASKING TO POKE HOLES IN THEIR LOGIC. I knew this shyt was a honey pot, but nikkas asked and as a believer I gave my little interpretation.

But you cheese eatin nikkas need to understand that the world ain't comprised of incarnations of ur moms, that's gonna coddle u and tell u what u wanna hear the way u wanna hear it.

That's life, nikka. That's how the world works. Be a goddamn man and stop acting like a teenage girl cuz nikkas online didn't sensitively tailor an answer to a question YOU'RE curious about in the first place. I swear when I was an atheist I couldn't stand other atheists that claimed to desire knowledge and then acted butthurt all the time when people didn't act like a personal tutor for em. How the fukk nikkas gon stand on a soapbox about not believing in a higher power then cry about feelings like other nonbelieving ass nikkas is gon coddle them?

That's how I know most of these atheist kids are full of shyt and they live in a coc00n. I wish I had approached the d0pe game like y'all approach learning shyt u have preconceived notions about. I'd be on a fukking t-shirt. Or be done fukked the work and my money up tryin to be a smart dumb nikka.