In Defense of Black Republicans

[theworldismine13]

How can I outsource the "black agenda" if there is none? How can we look to solve black people specific problems if there are none?

You said the issues I brought up were not specific to black people and neither were the solutions. So give me some black people specific problems and solutions.

im just using the "black agenda" as a figure of speech, i dont think there is any overall black agenda, but every person has their own views so im calling whatever you or me or other people think black people should do the "black agenda"

xcuse me if im putting words in your mouth but you just said black problems are simply part of a larger american problem and you believe black people should support progressive solutions to americas problems because black problems will also be helped by these progressive solutions, am i missing something?

You said the issues I brought up were not specific to black people and neither were the solutions. So give me some black people specific problems and solutions.

well education for example, i dont know where the hell you are getting your stats from, but overall black academic performance is atrocious

imo the solution is to deal with culture but also its too breakdown the public school system and use vouchers and charters so we can have a completely rebuilt school system and it would give black parents more control

but the main people blocking charter schools and vouchers are progressives, so that is an example where i think the "black agenda" differs from the progressive agenda, and its an issue where i would have to side with conservatives on

and that's the overall theme of the article and my views, black people should not get stuck on "progressive" solutions or politics and we should not outsource our agenda to the progressive agenda

another issue is immigration, we have an unemployment problem in the black community, a lot of it has to do with low education and lack of small business, but either way, why are progressives determined to legalize 11 million people that will compete for the low skilled jobs black people are trying to get? is legalization of 11 million people in our interests? i would say no, so again i would have to side with conservatives

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

i think thats a silly game, ive already said republicans are more outright racist than democrats

i just dont co-sign the strategy of simply aligning ourselves with "dem good white folk", if it increases your political and economic power or if you agree with their ideology its completely rational to join the gop

How can aligning yourself with a political party that has explicitly said its intention is to disenfranchise and marginalize you on the basis of your race ever work in your favor?

what i am saying is that we havent had an in depth examination of progressive policies on immigration, education, affirmative action, public housing, section 8, welfare etc etc and talked about their effectiveness in the black community

If we supposedly haven't done this for the party we agree with, we def haven't done it for the GOP, which begs the question how are you so certain that the GOP can work for certain black people?

people just assume that its good because the "dem good white folk" support it and the gop is racist and the gop is against those policies so therefore we are for it

Like I already said, our blind faith in the Dems def hasn't worked in our favor, but like I also said, we are basically trapped between a rock and a hard place, not just as a race but as Americans, as both parties are pretty terrible and have zero accountability. Again though, given the two choices, I'm still confused as to how anyone could rationalize going with the choice that has explicitly said it will work against one's interests.

1) im not here to defend the gop

2) you just admitted that democrats have taken advantage of our blind allegiance, which is essentially what ive been saying and you just said that you support democrats because they are less racist, in other words "dem some good white folk"

Should I support racism against myself?

and meach just admitted that he thinks black people should outsource black issues to the democrats

yall just basically admitted to everything im saying, im not even sure what it is you are arguing about unless you are trying to make a partisan argument

Nobody is arguing anything, we have been asking the same question from jump street

How is a black person voting for the GOP a black person voting in their own interests, when the GOP has stated and demonstrated time and time again that their platform is racist + anti-black progress?

Even if we agree that Dems are racist, as you suggest, they are still less racist than the GOP, as you admit. So again, if I am a black person voting in the context of black progress, what is the rationale for voting for the party that is the least for black progress?

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

im just using the "black agenda" as a figure of speech, i dont think there is any overall black agenda, but every person has their own views so im calling whatever you or me or other people think black people should do the "black agenda"

xcuse me if im putting words in your mouth but you just said black problems are simply part of a larger american problem and you believe black people should support progressive solutions to americas problems because black problems will also be helped by these progressive solutions, am i missing something?



well education for example, i dont know where the hell you are getting your stats from, but overall black academic performance is atrocious

imo the solution is to deal with culture but also its too breakdown the public school system and use vouchers and charters so we can have a completely rebuilt school system and it would give black parents more control

but the main people blocking charter schools and vouchers are progressives, so that is an example where i think the "black agenda" differs from the progressive agenda, and its an issue where i would have to side with conservatives on

and that's the overall theme of the article and my views, black people should not get stuck on "progressive" solutions or politics and we should not outsource our agenda to the progressive agenda

White kids outperform black kids at non voucher schools; vouchers aren't the solution, there is way more at play there. You yourself have gone into all of it ad nauseum in the past, largely pinning it all down to an anti-intellectual culture, which has nothing to do with vouchers or progressive politics. You are all over the place.

 

[theworldismine13]

White kids outperform black kids at non voucher schools; vouchers aren't the solution, there is way more at play there. You yourself have gone into all of it ad nauseum in the past, largely pinning it all down to an anti-intellectual culture, which has nothing to do with vouchers or progressive politics. You are all over the place.

did you leave a word out? what is the significance of white kids outperforming black kids in non voucher schools?

vouchers arent the solution according to who?

and im sure as hell not all over the place, ive always said the public school system should be eliminated and replaced with vouchers and charter schools, because the school system is not meant to handle people from broken families structures and it doesn't give parents enough control in that it forces parents into certain schools

you cant separate the school system from culture

 

[theworldismine13]

How can aligning yourself with a political party that has explicitly said its intention is to disenfranchise and marginalize you on the basis of your race ever work in your favor?



If we supposedly haven't done this for the party we agree with, we def haven't done it for the GOP, which begs the question how are you so certain that the GOP can work for certain black people?


Like I already said, our blind faith in the Dems def hasn't worked in our favor, but like I also said, we are basically trapped between a rock and a hard place, not just as a race but as Americans, as both parties are pretty terrible and have zero accountability. Again though, given the two choices, I'm still confused as to how anyone could rationalize going with the choice that has explicitly said it will work against one's interests.



Should I support racism against myself?



Nobody is arguing anything, we have been asking the same question from jump street

How is a black person voting for the GOP a black person voting in their own interests, when the GOP has stated and demonstrated time and time again that their platform is racist + anti-black progress?

Even if we agree that Dems are racist, as you suggest, they are still less racist than the GOP, as you admit. So again, if I am a black person voting in the context of black progress, what is the rationale for voting for the party that is the least for black progress?

im not here to defend the gop and i never said people should vote for the gop and i never said people should vote the least racist party either, so im the wrong person to ask to justify a partisan vote

but the way you rationalize it is the same way we rationalize living in the united states and how we deal with other racist institutions, its about ideology that you may agree with and making deals with racist people to gain political and economic power

its completely rational for a black person to vote for the least racist party, but its not the only rational choice, that is the only point of the article i posted, why does a simple assertion of intellectual freedom aggravate you

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

did you leave a word out? what is the significance of white kids outperforming black kids in non voucher schools?

vouchers arent the solution according to who?

Logic, reality, statistics? I didn't leave a word out... white kids at public schools outperform black kids at public schools, clearly the type of school is not the issue WRT academic performance.

and im sure as hell not all over the place, ive always said the public school system should be eliminated and replaced with vouchers and charter schools, because the school system is not meant to handle people from broken families structures and it doesn't give parents enough control in that it forces parents into certain schools

you cant separate the school system from culture

Lol you def are all over the place... what happens to the kids coming from broken family structures? How does leaving them behind play into your overarching program of "black progress"?

im not here to defend the gop and i never said people should vote for the gop and i never said people should vote the least racist party either, so im the wrong person to ask to justify a partisan vote

But you have said outright that voting for the Democrats is stupid/bad/"intellectually limited"

And the title of the thread is In Defense Of Black Republicans

but the way you rationalize it is the same way we rationalize living in the united states and how we deal with other racist institutions, its about ideology that you may agree with and making deals with racist people to gain political and economic power

May agree with? What black person agrees with anti-black racist ideology, besides you? And again, how can black people gain political power from a party whose platform is to erode their political power? Black progress and the GOP platform are completely incompatible

its completely rational for a black person to vote for the least racist party, but its not the only rational choice, that is the only point of the article i posted, why does a simple assertion of intellectual freedom aggravate you

Well I guess it depends on what the person is voting for. If the person is voting for black progress I don't see how it makes sense for them to align themselves politically with a party for whom black disenfranchisement and second class treatment are platform cornerstones. But if one wants to be a contrarian willing to put goofy incoherent ideology ahead of their own interests then I could see how such a self-defeating vote would make sense.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

im just using the "black agenda" as a figure of speech, i dont think there is any overall black agenda, but every person has their own views so im calling whatever you or me or other people think black people should do the "black agenda"

xcuse me if im putting words in your mouth but you just said black problems are simply part of a larger american problem and you believe black people should support progressive solutions to americas problems because black problems will also be helped by these progressive solutions, am i missing something?



well education for example, i dont know where the hell you are getting your stats from, but overall black academic performance is atrocious

imo the solution is to deal with culture but also its too breakdown the public school system and use vouchers and charters so we can have a completely rebuilt school system and it would give black parents more control

but the main people blocking charter schools and vouchers are progressives, so that is an example where i think the "black agenda" differs from the progressive agenda, and its an issue where i would have to side with conservatives on

and that's the overall theme of the article and my views, black people should not get stuck on "progressive" solutions or politics and we should not outsource our agenda to the progressive agenda

another issue is immigration, we have an unemployment problem in the black community, a lot of it has to do with low education and lack of small business, but either way, why are progressives determined to legalize 11 million people that will compete for the low skilled jobs black people are trying to get? is legalization of 11 million people in our interests? i would say no, so again i would have to side with conservatives

Again you haven't offered any black people specific problems or solutions, just empty rhetoric. Truth is there aren't many if any black people specefic problems in today's America. Outside of racism, black people have the same issues as white people, Latinos, Asians and any one else.

You bring up education which for one isn't a black people specific problem, for two there is no way to solve the problem without looking at the entire picture as opposed to just the black part of it. Unless you propose pushing a "money for black students" bill(which IMO wouldn't help) any solution you come up with will have to include all students not just black folks.

Currently in America about 88% of black students complete high school. That is a true fact from the department of education. You keep trying to say black culture is anti-academic but this stat disproves your assertion.

I don't see how you can demonize things like section 8 housing vouchers but champion education vouchers.

It has already been proven that vouchers are not the solution. First off there is just not enough money to go around to make sure all children have access to the program, second the kids that do receive vouchers aren't getting enough to enroll in the best schools. What good is a voucher if the parents can't afford co-payments?

Also vouchers tend to hurt public schools and the students left behind in public schools. If money and resources are being used to send kids to private school, then the kids left behind in public school receive even less then they already get.

The better idea is to use that money and resources to improve the public school system so that all students can have a fair chance at a quality education, not just those lucky enough to be chosen for vouchers.

As the other poster said, you are all over the place. On one hand you say black folks should concentrate on academics, then on the other hand you wanna complain about immigrants taking all the non-academic labor jobs. The immigrants that would be legalized are already here and working those jobs, legalizing them would make employers have to pay them competitive wages, which would actualy increase black folks chances of getting those jobs because employers would have no monetary incentive to hire immigrants.

 

[Brown_Pride]

Twimmy you've finally gone off the deep end son.

The GOP stance on racism is ...well it's racist.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=atwater%20speach%201981&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DX_8E3ENrKrQ&ei=02HbUICSKu3RiAKWrIDgAg&usg=AFQjCNFPPGluWTPVyETMtp1lEz2-l1SXpA&sig2=7NUBfZMiRiaknt5AxiTAXQ&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.cGE

You're anger or whatever it may be over black people voting democrat like zombies is not a defense of black people voting republican. They are two separate issues.
This stuck out to me the most in the article.

It implies that it is possible to be black the "wrong way."

it's not about being black the wrong way, it's about siding with a group of people who have historically tried to fuk you. Attempting to defend a traitor is just down right silly.

Black republicans have every right to vote or be as they may, that's them doing them and there's nothing wrong with that. In the same spirit people critisizing them for selling the fuk out have the same right to consider them sell outs.

But beyond that, the suggestion that people of color, LGBT people, or low-income people cannot vote for Republicans without being condescendingly told they are voting against their own interest is denying them agency because they are a member of an underrepresented group.

When being a part of a marginalized community disentitles people from complexity of thought, it perpetuates the same system of oppression and privilege that made those communities marginalized to begin with

The whole argument from the OP is that criticism somehow stifles "complexity of thought" and then he somehow likens that to the "same system of oppression" that caused the marginalization of the black community?

Really? So calling someone an uncle tom because they have sided with a group of people who have traditionally attempted to hold down the black community is analogous to things like Jim Crow, racist laws, the war on drugs, and Slavery?

You can't possibly be serious.

 

[The Real]

May agree with? What black person agrees with anti-black racist ideology, besides you? And again, how can black people gain political power from a party whose platform is to erode their political power? Black progress and the GOP platform are completely incompatible

This is the part that really puzzles me. If if were slavery times, and some slave spent all his time and effort defending slavery and putting down ideas of revolt and independence, and was made an overseer as a result, would TWISM just describe it as "exercising intellectual freedom" and pro-Black because that slave had a position of power on the plantation? That seems to be the logical conclusion of his stance, which implies that there is no objective reality to the way policy affects racial groups differently, and thus no facts. What we're left with is "raw power" gained by simple representation any and everywhere, since there are no power relations but the relations of representation in particular spheres of society.

 

[OneManGang]

Just going to leave this here, but after reading through this thread I can honestly say that you will never see a gay group, Jewish group, Indian, Chinese or any Asian group (as minorities here in America).....subscribe to the notion that to become stronger, we have to split ourselves up. Absolutely disgusting. Its a microcosm in here of our community as a whole really. Having said that, both sides did make some valid points. If the black community could come together and work towards common goals, then we wouldnt have to decide on parties. They would see us a group that needs to be catered to.

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

Twimmy wants to separate himself from a certain black element and is willing to put all other personal interests aside in pursuit of that goal... and then has the nerve to call that goal "black progress"

 

[theworldismine13]

Logic, reality, statistics? I didn't leave a word out... white kids at public schools outperform black kids at public schools, clearly the type of school is not the issue WRT academic performance.

i have no idea what it is you are trying to say, if black kids are doing worse how would that not be a case for changing the system? how could it not matter what type of school they go to?

but anyways im talking about black academic performance and i said we should get rid of the public school system and have a system of charters and vouchers

what do white kids have to do with that? if white people or other people think their public schools are fine then they should keep them, but im really talking about school systems that are failing, especially those in the cities that are majority black

Lol you def are all over the place... what happens to the kids coming from broken family structures? How does leaving them behind play into your overarching program of "black progress"?

i think you are confused about what i am saying, the whole reason for switching to charters and vouchers is to deal with broken families because charter schools and vouchers will allow schools to be more flexible as far as time at school and a more flexible bureaucracy to deal with broken families, the current public system is not set up for that

i have no idea how this is being all over the place

But you have said outright that voting for the Democrats is stupid/bad/"intellectually limited"

yeah didnt you just say that democrats have taken advantage of black voting patterns?

And the title of the thread is In Defense Of Black Republicans

that was the title of the article, it wasnt my title, and the article does not endorse any party or ideology it simply asserts that intellectual freedom is important

did you read the article or did you just read the title and got your panties in a bunch?

May agree with? What black person agrees with anti-black racist ideology, besides you? And again, how can black people gain political power from a party whose platform is to erode their political power? Black progress and the GOP platform are completely incompatible

the point of the article was using tim scott as an example

and you can ask the same question about living in the us, why do you live in a country that was founded and whose laws are based on the oppression of black people? what is the point of even voting?

 

[theworldismine13]

Just going to leave this here, but after reading through this thread I can honestly say that you will never see a gay group, Jewish group, Indian, Chinese or any Asian group (as minorities here in America).....subscribe to the notion that to become stronger, we have to split ourselves up. Absolutely disgusting. Its a microcosm in here of our community as a whole really. Having said that, both sides did make some valid points. If the black community could come together and work towards common goals, then we wouldnt have to decide on parties. They would see us a group that needs to be catered to.

im not sure what you mean by splitting up, the whole point of the article is that black people shoudlnt let partisan politics split black people up and that people should respect black people that dont vote democratic

and for the record there are bunch of minorities groups that split their vote, in fact there are 2 republican indian governors and in fact blacks are the only minority group that dont split their vote

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

i have no idea what it is you are trying to say, if black kids are doing worse how would that not be a case for changing the system? how could it not matter what type of school they go to?

but anyways im talking about black academic performance and i said we should get rid of the public school system and have a system of charters and vouchers

what do white kids have to do with that? if white people or other people think their public schools are fine then they should keep them, but im really talking about school systems that are failing, especially those in the cities that are majority black

Thats my whole point, white kids are able to thrive in the same school system, therefore the issues black kids are having have to be something either outside the school system or stemming from differences in how the school system treats them vs white kids... neither of which will be solved by vouchers, and both of which have factors that would be exacerbated by them

i think you are confused about what i am saying, the whole reason for switching to charters and vouchers is to deal with broken families because charter schools and vouchers will allow schools to be more flexible as far as time at school and a more flexible bureaucracy to deal with broken families, the current public system is not set up for that

i have no idea how this is being all over the place

Its all over the place because in your grand theory you have claimed in the past that black progress is being hindered by black anti-intellectualism, rap music, black culture... now you are claiming it all boils down to the public school system. You have a new scapegoat in every discussion and you can't make a case for any of em

And how would vouchers open up more resources? As is public schools are limited, now you are suggesting the solution is to limit them more by pooling their resources preferentially through vouchers

yeah didnt you just say that democrats have taken advantage of black voting patterns?

Yes... do you not see the difference between that and the GOP's explicitly racist + anti-black platform?

that was the title of the article, it wasnt my title, and the article does not endorse any party or ideology it simply asserts that intellectual freedom is important

Your arguments w/everyone who disagrees with you or points out the gross inaccuracies/fallacies in your thinking flies in the face of intellectual anything

And no you didn't title the article, but you agree with its premise, which is partisan

did you read the article or did you just read the title and got your panties in a bunch?

I was thinking to ask you the same

the point of the article was using tim scott as an example

and you can ask the same question about living in the us, why do you live in a country that was founded and whose laws are based on the oppression of black people? what is the point of even voting?

Well, for starters, regardless of its problems with race America is the land of opportunity. I've been around the world, I have many immigrant friends, my parents are immigrants so I know how it is. For me the pros here outweigh the cons, even though its far from perfect.

To take your silly analogy further, voting for the Dems is like living in the US. The US is far from perfect and doesnt always act in my best interest. But generally its good enough and more importantly it beats all alternatives. Voting is not an academic exercise- its a choice that can affect your life and its a privilege that people died for you to make. So pardon me for finding the idea that one should essentially "troll" with their vote and align with folks who have explicitly said "we are going to continue our legacy of fukking your ethnicity" to be just a teeny weeny lil lil bit ridiculous

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

This is the part that really puzzles me. If if were slavery times, and some slave spent all his time and effort defending slavery and putting down ideas of revolt and independence, and was made an overseer as a result, would TWISM just describe it as "exercising intellectual freedom" and pro-Black because that slave had a position of power on the plantation? That seems to be the logical conclusion of his stance, which implies that there is no objective reality to the way policy affects racial groups differently, and thus no facts. What we're left with is "raw power" gained by simple representation any and everywhere, since there are no power relations but the relations of representation in particular spheres of society.

Second class treatment is first class treatment. Disenfranchisement is representation. Oppression is power