Mr. Somebody
Friend Of A Friend
What are you talking about?Yeah, the game was ridiculously bigoted. And I'm not talking about the jim crow shyt on the face either.
Not sad about this at all, fukk em....
Irrational Games (Bioshock developer) shutting its doors
- Thread starter duncanthetall
- Start date
Mr. Somebody
Friend Of A Friend
Then they all die. What a happy ending.
Box Cutta
Bumbling Sidekick
I'm saying that Ken Levine's bullshyt, false equivalency of Comstock and Daisy Fitzroy, and then the subsequent, complete dropping of the entire storyline for the silly sci-fi wankery, was my real issue with the game.
I think at one point, the character states that they "Deserve each other". Load of white privileged nonsense. They were justified to use the era, and even show some of it's racism, but they dropped the ball with it, and it didn't even really matter much in the end regardless because "there is always a lighthouse" or whatever.
^ The true hero of the game. Who, for some strange reason, is portrayed as a maniac, and ends up killing a child.
Mr. Somebody
Friend Of A Friend
@winb83 @hexagram23 How you feel about that.I'm saying that Ken Levine's bullshyt, false equivalency of Comstock and Daisy Fitzroy, and then the subsequent, complete dropping of the entire storyline for the silly sci-fi wankery, was my real issue with the game.
I think at one point, the character states that they "Deserve each other". Load of white privileged nonsense. They were justified to use the era, and even show some of it's racism, but they dropped the ball with it, and it didn't even really matter much in the end regardless because "there is always a lighthouse" or whatever.
^ The true hero of the game. Who, for some strange reason, is portrayed as a maniac, and ends up killing a child.
King Koopa
All Star
Still playing through Infinite for the first time and it's one of the better games I played in a while. Creative and different. Haven't played the first 2 yet.
Why are dudes saying the game is racist? Just cuz the black people die at the end doesn't paint a better picture of how bad they made the whites look at parts. Just hearing some of the side convos the whites would say showed how uppity and better they thought they were.
. She was also going crazy thinking Booker was a clone and shyt.
I'm close to finishing and from what I've seen throughout the game, Comstock >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daisy as far as being the evil and crazy one.
Wondering if I should I edit my post and spoiler some shyt
Why are dudes saying the game is racist? Just cuz the black people die at the end doesn't paint a better picture of how bad they made the whites look at parts. Just hearing some of the side convos the whites would say showed how uppity and better they thought they were.Booker was talking about Comstock and Daisy being the same after witnessing all the destruction, not the black and whites overall. You probably meant that, too and I just read that part of your post wrong. They also didn't make Daisy seem like maniac, just showed her becoming a bit extreme at the end with the revolution. I loved her character and she didn't kill the child, Elizabeth stopped her. She could have been bluffing with that anywayI'm saying that Ken Levine's bullshyt, false equivalency of Comstock and Daisy Fitzroy, and then the subsequent, complete dropping of the entire storyline for the silly sci-fi wankery, was my real issue with the game.
I think at one point, the character states that they "Deserve each other". Load of white privileged nonsense. They were justified to use the era, and even show some of it's racism, but they dropped the ball with it, and it didn't even really matter much in the end regardless because "there is always a lighthouse" or whatever.
^ The true hero of the game. Who, for some strange reason, is portrayed as a maniac, and ends up killing a child.
. She was also going crazy thinking Booker was a clone and shyt.I'm close to finishing and from what I've seen throughout the game, Comstock >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daisy as far as being the evil and crazy one.
Wondering if I should I edit my post and spoiler some shyt
Prince Akeem
Its not that deep breh....
I'm saying that Ken Levine's bullshyt, false equivalency of Comstock and Daisy Fitzroy, and then the subsequent, complete dropping of the entire storyline for the silly sci-fi wankery, was my real issue with the game.
I think at one point, the character states that they "Deserve each other". Load of white privileged nonsense. They were justified to use the era, and even show some of it's racism, but they dropped the ball with it, and it didn't even really matter much in the end regardless because "there is always a lighthouse" or whatever.
^ The true hero of the game. Who, for some strange reason, is portrayed as a maniac, and ends up killing a child.
Overall the game wasn't racist BUT I absolutely agree on the Daisy Fitzroy/Comstock false equivalency bullshyt.
this in a nutshell.
I'm saying that Ken Levine's bullshyt, false equivalency of Comstock and Daisy Fitzroy, and then the subsequent, complete dropping of the entire storyline for the silly sci-fi wankery, was my real issue with the game.
I think at one point, the character states that they "Deserve each other". Load of white privileged nonsense. They were justified to use the era, and even show some of it's racism, but they dropped the ball with it, and it didn't even really matter much in the end regardless because "there is always a lighthouse" or whatever.
^ The true hero of the game. Who, for some strange reason, is portrayed as a maniac, and ends up killing a child.
How is she a hero?
Let's put it like this. White people in South Africa have done (and do) horrific shyt to the indigenous people. So it stands to reason black people there would like to over throw them. I can't say I blame them.
Should Khalid Muhammad do it? He called for every white person there to be killed, including women, children and babies:
You're basically saying she's a hero solely because she went against people worse than her, and that's not how it works. In a game where the white protagonist sold his daughter to pay off gambling debts I'm not sure why you'd expect her, or anyone, to be a shining example of heroism.
Fred.
How is she a hero?
Let's put it like this. White people in South Africa have done (and do) horrific shyt to the indigenous people. So it stands to reason black people there would like to over throw them. I can't say I blame them.
Should Khalid Muhammad do it? He called for every white person there to be killed, including women, children and babies:
You're basically saying she's a hero solely because she went against people worse than her, and that's not how it works. In a game where the white protagonist sold his daughter to pay off gambling debts I'm not sure why you'd expect her, or anyone, to be some kind of pure example heroism.
Fred.
there really are no "good guys" in Infinite.
there are however just causes and lofty ideals that are inevitably carried out in very imperfect ways
therefore leading to the causes and ideals manifesting themselves in tragic turns of events...very much like our own history in the real world.
very few games touch upon these subjects the way that Infinite did.
Bioshock Infinite is one of the GOATS and here is why i say that:
Social Commentary in the game was amazing.
when you get to the Fink Manufacturing and hear the propaganda over the sound system, see it in the films playing and see workers competing
for jobs by bidding lower and lower wages and promising more production, i just stopped and watched it play out like
there is a company store were employees buy the products that they manufacture therefore setting up an indentured service sort of deal that is really no better than slavery.
it's very much like the story of George Pullman, if you are into history at all, i suggest that you check this brief summary on Wiki and then re-examine the Fink story line in Bioshock Infinite.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Pullman
the Vox Populi labor movement was a cool story arch and reminded me of the Labor/Union movement in the late 19th and early 20th century in our world.
the way the the founding fathers were elevated to almost God like status and Comstock practically made a religion around them made me think about the Tea party for some reason.
the blatant prejudice expressed by the people was so raw and unfiltered.
it's something that is taboo in the gaming world but Bioshock dived into it unapologetically and you gotta respect that.
walking down the beach and hearing Girls Just Wanna Have Fun...i wasthen
.
easily one of my favorite and most unexpected gaming experiences last year.
i thought the shooting mechanics were just fine and this is coming from someone who has been playing PC shooters for more than 15 years.
the environment was stunning, if you didn't stop andwhen you got to Columbia then i don't know what to say, that place is gorgeous.
the whole parallel universe spin opens up so many doors down the line to make sequels in endless environments and times is.
that's my Bioshock Infinite rant.
Box Cutta
Bumbling Sidekick
How is she a hero?
Let's put it like this. White people in South Africa have done (and do) horrific shyt to the indigenous people. So it stands to reason black people there would like to over throw them. I can't say I blame them.
Should Khalid Muhammad do it? He called for every white person there to be killed, including women, children and babies:
You're basically saying she's a hero solely because she went against people worse than her, and that's not how it works. In a game where the white protagonist sold his daughter to pay off gambling debts I'm not sure why you'd expect her, or anyone, to be a shining example of heroism.
Fred.
You actually prove MY point : Black South Africans didn't kill everyone, they didn't enact harsh revenge, ultimately : They didn't prove their oppressors right. (And this doesn't speak to whether or not they should have, that's a different topic that need be left for Higher Learning).
But in BSI, because Ken Levine wanted to make a science fiction game, but also wanted to latch on some pseudo-intellectual "point", we were left with some ridiculous statement about oppressors and oppressed being two sides of the same coin. He invokes real history....mangles it beyond imagination...then dumps it the second it no longer serves the purpose of "Press X to Elizabeth".
Which goes back to what I originally stated : The false equivalency between the Founders and the Vox Pop is extremely problematic and in fact, racist.
Let me ask you this, would Ken Levine (Who is a Jew) have created the same equivalency between Jews and Germany during the 1930's?
I respect the fact that Irrational tried to bring a bit of intellectualism to the fps, triple-A gaming space. Hell...it's good that we can have this kind of discussion (You'll never see me discussing the merits of say, a Halo story or something). I just don't think they deserve a pass just for trying.
There *is* something here. The beginning 3rd of the game feels like it's going to re-capture the essence of BS1. I was invested in the story-line between the Founders and the Vox....but that conflict ended up being worthless....just window dressing for the multi-verse dreck. That's what white privilege is. That's what racism is. Butcher, and ultimately, undermine the actual plight of minorities in order to boost fantasy-driven rubbish.
If you want to get technical about it, I'll allow the argument that it's not racist, just extremely short-sighted, poorly written, obtuse.....but I don't see why. Invoke the image of real peoples history, fukk it up completely, dump it for self-referential, high-handed, pretentious crap....what ISN'T wrong with the story in this game?
This is somewhat similar to the argument that Spike made against Django. "Slavery wasn't a Spaghetti Western". Unlike Ken Levine however, at least QT didn't have the audacity to try and equate oppressed peoples uprisings to the people that were cracking the whips in the first place. QT leaves no room for debate, the slave-owners are cartoonish, but definitely evil. Levine, for *some* reason, straddles the fence, wants to play his centrist game, wants to find a space between these groups. (The reason being, he's a wealthy white liberal, who while maybe sympathetic towards the plight of minorities, will be DAMNED if he's going to support them actually rocking the boat and trying to change things).
Bioshock Infinite had great graphics, did some other technical things really well, but everything else was lacking compared to BS1. Especially the political implications. A Man Chooses, A Slave Obeys >>>> Everything in Bioshock Infinite.
Mr. Somebody
Friend Of A Friend
Coli Pulitzer material right here, friends. You dont have to backpedal. The game is racist, whether the writer realized it or not. No wonder he struggled to finish writing it and nearly quit. The story was getting to real and he had to dig to deep into his personal feelings and just abandoned the concepts.
You didn't answer my question. I said, would you like someone like Khalid Muhammad to overthrow South Africa? Of course not. So how is Daisy Fitzroy a "good guy"? How is she making black people look bad, when there's obviously real world analogs worse than her?
Here's the thing:
White supremacists have argued the exact opposite point you're making. They said the game made white people look bad, and it was basically a "white person murder simulator" because a rather large plot point is over throwing Coumbia, which is an ultra-white, early 1900's conservative utopia. They said they had a problem with the subplot where you help black "terrorists" over throw the government.
They even argued the exact same point, concerning Ken Levine and his Jewish background.
You can't both be right. In fact, neither of you is right because you're both choosing to focus on the race of individual characters instead of seeing the bigger picture. Again, in a game where the protagonist sold his daughter over gambling debts, why would you expect a black woman to be a hero? Because she's black? There isn't a "good" person in the entire game. I don't mean to sound like an a$$hole but Irrational doesn't owe you a black hero just because the white people are evil.
And for the record a ton of races caught hell in that game, not just black people. There was Voxophones, posters, and propaganda going in on Irish, Chinese, Native Americans, and yes, even Jews. The "multi-verse dreck" is the point of the game, not trying to make some profound statement on race relations. It honestly seems like you seen Daisy Fitzroy and the Vox, expected the game to go a certain route concerning them, and when it didn't you got upset. And that's fine, but that's not really the game's fault.
Fred.
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@Box Cutta
I meant to mention this above, but Daisy Fitzroy is in the final DLC for this game coming out in March. So the "crazy kill white kids" version that we seen of her ain't necessarily the final word on her character. That's the thing about the "multi-verse dreck" though, there isn't one version of any character.
Now, if she's crazier or worse than what we've already seen, that's another topic. But let's chill until then.
Fred.
I meant to mention this above, but Daisy Fitzroy is in the final DLC for this game coming out in March. So the "crazy kill white kids" version that we seen of her ain't necessarily the final word on her character. That's the thing about the "multi-verse dreck" though, there isn't one version of any character.
Now, if she's crazier or worse than what we've already seen, that's another topic. But let's chill until then.
Fred.
I feel like Daisy Fitzroy was a realistic character. when the oppressed suddenly becomes the oppressor what else would you expect to happen? I think if you went back to slavery days and entered a plantation and distributed guns to the slaves blood would have been spilled. women and children would have got it too.
yall having a hell of a convo, it's interesting to read...i'm not jumping in it, i'll let yall continue....just wanted to comment on what you kinda touched on in this post and the longer post above it:
the 'multi-verse dreck' as yall have labeled it is the main plot of the game, all the race relations is the sub plot/secondary, and by the end it doesn't matter....the reason I say that is cause the daisy we first meet in the first universe we're in, isn't the same daisy that ends up trying to kill the kid in another universe...so we don't know what the original daisy/vox had planned in terms of how they were gonna rebel...and I think people kinda ignore that when talking about the game...they take it as the people are the same cause of the same names no matter what universe they were in, and that's not the case.....
...now whether or not the game may be racist cause of the fact that ken decided to make the race relations in the game pointless after the first tear was introduced to propel the sci-fi aspects is another story/topic, that i'm not gonna get in...i'm just gonna sit back and read what yall think, cause like I said, yall having a hell of a convo, that's been pretty interesting so far....