IS IT REALLY "HARD" TO BECOME A SURGEON?

[FUPA]

Before we start, please remember, "hard" and "easy" are RELATIVE terms...

1) I understand from a social perspective it is hard to become a surgeon based on educational bureaucracy...

2) Let us put those barriers aside and say that we are in a hypothetical society with unlimited resources that are spread equitably among the people, what will make becoming a surgeon "hard" in this society?

3) Think about it, most people graduate high school at 18...Do an undergrad until 22...A typical medical school until 26...A general surgery residency at 30...

Why is this significant? Because there are other skills in this world that the average human being can never truly master if he/she starts training after the age of 25...

Try learning the piano or violin at age 25 and see how well you do...But most our surgeons start at about 25 and are still able to master surgery...

4) What does that tell you? Surgery is not relatively "harder" or "easier" than other skills that humans can acquire...

5) If you have interest, a sharp memory and psychomotor dexterity (like most average humans who are engaged in mental and physical activity), I don't see why somebody would neg rep me for stating that become a surgeon isn't as difficult as people make it seem to be...

I have to kinda agree you on you basis that i learned this when i started in my field. Btw a specialized surgeon starts practicing around age of 34 with extra years of a fellowship.

But when i started out as a surgical tech after a few total hips i could basically start a case from beginning to end. Now i didnt go to school med school besides general anatomy calsses. But learning on the job is not hard in this field. It almost becomes the same thing over and over. Of course there's always the what to do of certain complications happen. But other than that. After doing my 40th hip case within 2 months i could do it myself. Now this probably doesn't work for all specialties. Neuro can always take a left turn by touching or resecting more than you should. It can get way more complicated by the delicate nature of the brain but i can bust out craniotomys and cranioplastys like no other. Same with shunts and even most general surgery. Even a gastrojejunostomy is fukking cake after doing 30 of them.

Its harder to be a internal medicine guy. Where you have to find the source of the problem i believe. Once you know whats wrong youre a fukking mechanic and you just get to work.

my .02.

 

[A1aaa]

surgery in itself is a demanding residency, 80 hr work weeks for 5 years. not everyone can do that.

there isn't much margin for error, burnout is huge and requires you to be meticulous.

not everyone has that skill-set or hand-eye coordination

bureaucracy wise, it is an easier route to get there if you're a rich, privileged shythead.

source: my cousin is an orthopedic surgeon

 

[tmonster]

2) So, if you can't do well in physics, that means you can't be trained to be a surgeon?

physics teaches you how to think about everything from the knife cutting the skin, to the body fluids that leak out, to the body on the operating table itself
you are talking outside of your understanding
stop wasting keystrokes

 

[tmonster]

But when i started out as a surgical tech after a few total hips i could basically start a case from beginning to end. Now i didnt go to school med school besides general anatomy calsses.

This happens a lot with supporting staff, because the surgeon is good and makes it look easy
so they wind up believing it is easy
You think you can copy until you have to copy
what you wouldnt know how to do even if you got to copy, would be:
-what you do when something goes wrong
-when to cut your losses during a procedure when things are going wrong
-what to say to the anesthesiologist when the patient is not breathing right or not doing 10s of different behaviors that they should be
-or when the surgical site seems to be bleeding a bit more than it should
-How to plan the procedure so meticulously that all the patients start looking routine to the uninitiated, even though they each come with their own medical/surgical issues and anatomic variances.
-what you didn't know are the hundreds of principles and rules of engagement a surgeon has to use, cut by cut.

and so many more

 

[nineteeneightysix]

physics teaches you how to think about everything from the knife cutting the skin, to the body fluids that leak out, to the body on the operating table itself
you are talking outside of your understanding
stop wasting keystrokes

1) Stop the bullshat...You don't need physics to cut a body...Cutting a body is a psychological and psychomotor thing...You don't need to think about it...With enough practice, you learn...

If you can thread a needle, you have the basic fine motor skills to learn how to hold a scalpel and make incisions...The rest is memorization and experience...

2) There is very little physics in medicine, and the physics that there is very BASIC...The average human being can understand it...

3) It is funny to me how some of you people are IGNORING THE FACTS that many medical schools a) DON'T require a science undergrad anymore...b) They don't ask for MCATs anymore...

4) Surgeons are just average humans who had an interest in that field...I respect anybody who is a surgeon for the fact that they were mentally strong enough to successfully jump over the educational barriers that society has erected...

But as far as knowledge and technique is concerned, any human being who is interested and has no nervous system deficits and muscular issues, can become a surgeon...

a) You master human anatomy and b) You practice technique on a cadaver....What is so hard about that? The hardest thing is going through years of memorization...And that is NOT even hard, it just a matter of interest and time...

How many rap lyrics have some of you memorized...If you replaced that nonsense with some really knowledge you will realize that you too could be a brain surgeon if you were INTERESTED in that field...

5) If you don't believe that, damn, you think low of yourself...Stop drinking the elitist Kool-Aid

 

[FUPA]

This happens a lot with supporting staff, because the surgeon is good and makes it look easy
so they wind up believing it is easy
You think you can copy until you have to copy
what you wouldnt know how to do even if you got to copy, would be:
-what you do when something goes wrong
-when to cut your losses during a procedure when things are going wrong
-what to say to the anesthesiologist when the patient is not breathing right or not doing 10s of different behaviors that they should be
-or when the surgical site seems to be bleeding a bit more than it should
-How to plan the procedure so meticulously that all the patients start looking routine to the uninitiated, even though they each come with their own medical/surgical issues and anatomic variances.
-what you didn't know are the hundreds of principles and rules of engagement a surgeon has to use, cut by cut.

and so many more

of course i mention besides unforeseen circumstances come into play. But ive been doing this 6 years now. Over 4k cases and believe me its not as complicated as you are making it out to seem. Surgeons walk in there like cowboys they think they are gods they slice and dice without a care. Im a Surgical PA now i get to start cases and finish cases when the DR feels like taking off early or says fukk it and wants to stand around. I did go back to school for 1 1/2 more years of in depth study. But i honestly dont use 85% of the shyt they teach you. Ive seen it all from nicked arterys and being covered in blood from face shield down too having lost patients because a incompetent Anesthesiologist was fukking around on a ipad not paying attention. I now work for one of the best Hospitals in the West trust me they wouldnt have me in the surgical unit if i didnt know what the fukk i was doing. I may not have MD at the end of my name but catch me handing out Ls to med students and residents that are just starting out. One more thing people are intimidated about this shyt especially black brown people. This bytch filled with Asians and whites we have about 4 blacks in whole OR staff. all other brehs just cleaning the floors and shyt and some of them seem smart but just scared. stay away from school and big money cause you scared brehs.

 

[nineteeneightysix]

of course i mention besides unforeseen circumstances come into play. But ive been doing this 6 years now. Over 4k cases and believe me its not as complicated as you are making it out to seem. Surgeons walk in there like cowboys they think they are gods they slice and dice without a care. Im a Surgical PA now i get to start cases and finish cases when the DR feels like taking off early or says fukk it and wants to stand around. I did go back to school for 1 1/2 more years of in depth study. But i honestly dont use 85% of the shyt they teach you. Ive seen it all from nicked arterys and being covered in blood from face shield down too having lost patients because a incompetent Anesthesiologist was fukking around on a ipad not paying attention. I now work for one of the best Hospitals in the West trust me they wouldnt have me in the surgical unit if i didnt know what the fukk i was doing. I may not have MD at the end of my name but catch me handing out Ls to med students and residents that are just starting out. One more thing people are intimidated about this shyt especially black brown people. This bytch filled with Asians and whites we have about 4 blacks in whole OR staff. all other brehs just cleaning the floors and shyt and some of them seem smart but just scared. stay away from school and big money cause you scared brehs.

1) Thank you for educating these people...

2) Like I stated in my OP...'Hard' is a relative term...Yes, surgery requires more dedication than working at McDonalds, but it is NOT a skill beyond the average human being...

3) You need a good MEMORY to remember the human anatomy and important anatomical landmarks...You need DEXTERITY to hold the scalpel and make the correct incision...

Most importantly, You need EXPERIENCE...The human body looks different in actuality compared to the pictures in an Anatomy Atlas...You need to see it everyday and practice on it everyday...

This is NOT hard...If you can remember rap lyrics, you can memorize the human anatomy...

It is takes interest, time and practice...

4) Aim higher folks...Doctors are getting paid thousands upon thousands of dollars to memorize...Why are you wasting time memorizing NONSENSICAL Future lyrics instead of KNOWLEDGE that can improve your life...

 

[Mowgli]

Most people don't want to be in school until 30. Its really all about dedication and hard work. So in that sense it is hard.

And nerves of steel. You can't train yourself to be calm and steady handed when blood is spurting out everywhere and that little beep machine is going haywire. It takes a different type of person.

 

[A1aaa]

--

 

[NO-BadAzz]

I knew a friend who so called was working as a Surgeon. He use to tell us how hard it was to become one, and how much studying you had to do.
Dude use to tell us how his team would operate on folks, and how he use to study every night. (I was a youngin at the time so I fail for it )

So my fam and I go to the hospital where he works, for something I can't recall, and I ask one of the ladies who was standing there looking at us, where is, Dr. Woods (dude's last name) is he in surgery

She said "Dr. Woods, who?" We don't have a Dr. Woods here, The only Woods we have here at THIS (she put emphasis on THIS) hospital is Lenard Woods, is that's who you're talking about son?"

Me: yes, but I thought he works in Surgery>

Her: No child, "The only Woods that works here which is Lenard, works in housekeeping along with us" he's prolly in the men's bathroom on the 3rd floor cleaning the toilets.

 

[tmonster]

I knew a friend who so called was working as a Surgeon. He use to tell us how hard it was to become one, and how much studying you had to do.
Dude use to tell us how his team would operate on folks, and how he use to study every night. (I was a youngin at the time so I fail for it )

So my fam and I go to the hospital where he works, for something I can't recall, and I ask one of the asked a lady who was standing there looking at us, where is, Dr. Woods (dude's last name) is he in surgery

She said "Dr. Woods, who?" We don't have a Dr. Woods here, The only Woods we have here at THIS (she put emphasis on THIS) hospital is Lenard Woods, is that's who you're talking about son?"

Me: yes, but I thought he works in Surgery>

Her: No child, "The only Woods that works here which is Lenard, works in housekeeping along with us" he's prolly in the men's bathroom on the 3rd floor cleaning the toilets.

 

[tmonster]

1) Stop the bullshat...You don't need physics to cut a body.

you are right
you don't need physics to cut a body
having them survive after that's another issue altogether

 

[tmonster]

3) It is funny to me how some of you people are IGNORING THE FACTS that many medical schools a) DON'T require a science undergrad anymore...b) They don't ask for MCATs anymore...

many huh? how many schools are you talkin' ?


Medical Schools That Don't Require the MCAT
by M. Shayne Arcilla, Demand Media

Not all med school students took the MCAT.


Typically, the Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) is required of all medical school candidates, particularly in the United States. Some schools have opted to make this criterion voluntary. Students, however, may place themselves at a disadvantage should they choose to not submit MCAT scores with their applications. Overseas, the MCAT becomes less of a requirement and more of an option. Some of the top medical schools in Canada, for example, do not require students to submit MCAT scores.
(here are the many)
Dartmouth Medical School
Dartmouth Medical School (DMS) is one of the top medical schools in the United States. Located in Hanover, New Hampshire, DMS offers world-class research and training facilities. The school offers M.D., M..D/Ph.D., M.D./M.B.A. and advanced degrees in public health policy. Admission into any of the school's programs is competitive. DMS does not require potential medical candidates to take the MCAT, but it states that opting to do so may put prospective students at a disadvantage. It has does not enforce rigid cutoffs but states that entering classes report average MCAT scores of approximately 33 and average undergraduate GPA of 3.7 out of 4.0. Dartmouth Medical School 1 Rope Ferry Road Hanover, NH 03755 603-650-1200 dms.dartmouth.edu

University of Ottawa
The University of Ottawa is a bilingual school with courses taught in both French and English. The university offers a medical program, which students can apply to after completing three years of undergraduate study inclusive of the prerequisite courses in the natural sciences. Candidates may complete missing prerequisite courses in the academic year preceding admission but not during the summer before their registration into the M.D. program. Per their website, the medical school does not require MCAT scores for admission because of the prerequisite courses in the sciences. However, this also means that the school will scrutinize the applicant's academic record more closely. University of Ottawa Faculty of Medicine 451, Smyth Rd., Ottawa (Ontario) Canada K1H 8M5 613-562-5409 med.uottawa.ca

Early Assurance Programs
Some top medical schools offer an "early assurance" program whereby a potential student applies to medical school during her sophomore or junior year in college. Applicants are accepted based on their credentials and are offered a guaranteed spot at the medical school, provided that she maintain a certain level on a given set of criteria, such as a minimum GPA. Some schools that offer this option include: The Mount Sinai School of Medicine 1 Gustave L Levy Place New York, NY 10029-6500 212-659-6700 mountsinai.org Wake Forest University School of Medicine Medical Center Boulevard Winston-Salem, North Carolina 27157-1090 336-716-4264 wfubmc.edu Georgetown Medical School Medical Dental Building 3900 Reservoir Road NW Washington, DC 20057 202-687-1154 som.georgetown.edu

Postbaccalaureate Programs
Some postbaccalaureate programs, such as The Johns Hopkins University (JHU) Post-Bac, offer linkages to medical schools that would waive the MCAT requirement. In the case of JHU, Post-Bac graduates can apply directly to the Brown University and the University of Rochester medical schools without taking the MCAT. The Johns Hopkins University Post-Baccalaureate Premedical Program 28 Shriver Hall 3400 North Charles Street Baltimore, MD 21218 410-516-7748 jhu.edu

 

[tmonster]

1) Thank you for educating these people...

2) Like I stated in my OP...'Hard' is a relative term...Yes, surgery requires more dedication than working at McDonalds, but it is NOT a skill beyond the average human being...

3) You need a good MEMORY to remember the human anatomy and important anatomical landmarks...You need DEXTERITY to hold the scalpel and make the correct incision...

Most importantly, You need EXPERIENCE...The human body looks different in actuality compared to the pictures in an Anatomy Atlas...You need to see it everyday and practice on it everyday...

This is NOT hard...If you can remember rap lyrics, you can memorize the human anatomy...

It is takes interest, time and practice...

4) Aim higher folks...Doctors are getting paid thousands upon thousands of dollars to memorize...Why are you wasting time memorizing NONSENSICAL Future lyrics instead of KNOWLEDGE that can improve your life...

you've convinced me breh
being and becoming a surgeon is not hard

 

[tmonster]

5) If you don't believe that, damn, you think low of yourself...Stop drinking the elitist Kool-Aid

you went deep here, i am starting to appreciate your wisdom
I have to believe in myself more