Is Jason Kidd a top 3 PG of all time?
- Thread starter Heelmatic
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torcher
Superstar
MooseMouthMthafuga
Veteran
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MooseMouthMthafuga
Veteran
Stats don't really back it up.He had his best years playing run & gun from '99-'02 when Westphal was the coach in Seattle.The team was horrible, but GP was getting his.
Clutch? point to some examples? what's his defining moment? the behind the head alleyhoop to Kemp?
His offensive game was rugged.Like I said, knuckle ball Jumpshot...awkward looking/ methodical post game....his game wasn't the nicest on the eyes, but it was effective enough...Not great.
I'm not saying he was horrible.I acknowledge him as a all star caliber player during his career.I just don't think he's a all time great all the way around.
No..Money..Mo..Problems
it is what it is
He's not even top 7
1.Magic
2.Big O
3.Stockton
4.Zeke
5.Cousy
6.The Glove
7.Nash
1.Magic
2.Big O
3.Stockton
4.Zeke
5.Cousy
6.The Glove
7.Nash
no its not.
if you are a 6'4 point guard. odds are you're going to grab a lot more rebs then your avg small PG.
thats goes without saying. lets say your avg regular sized without crazy hops, pg is getting around 3 a night TOPS. well just off the strength of your height alone, you grabbing 4+.
now where the the remaining 4 or so come from? its when you make a conscious decision to go in the paint with the big boys and grab defensive rebounds so you can push it on offense.
jason kidd never played with a 10 reb a night guy, at least not to my knowledge. and i'm talking Jkidd in his prime. not dallas kidd.
that means there are more rebounds for you to go get. you have to rebound as a team if you dont have ONE serious big man snagging boards. and if you have a tall guard, he will be one of those people getting the extra boards left out there for not having a board snagger big on the team.
its basketball logic.
look at this team.
Code:
<PRE>
Rk Player G MP ORB DRB TRB
1 Jason Kidd 80 36.7 1.7 6.5 8.2
2 Nenad Krstic 26 32.6 2.0 4.8 6.8
3 Vince Carter 82 38.1 1.4 4.6 6.0
4 Mikki Moore 79 26.4 1.8 3.3 5.1
5 Richard Jefferson 55 35.6 0.9 3.5 4.4
6 Jason Collins 80 23.1 1.1 2.8 4.0
7 Bostjan Nachbar 76 20.2 0.4 3.0 3.3
8 Josh Boone 61 11.0 1.0 1.8 2.9
9 Antoine Wright 63 18.0 0.6 2.2 2.8
10 Clifford Robinson 50 19.1 0.6 1.8 2.4
11 Marcus Williams 79 16.6 0.4 1.7 2.1
12 Eddie House 56 16.9 0.3 1.4 1.6
13 Hassan Adams 61 8.1 0.6 0.7 1.3
14 Bernard Robinson 10 3.7 0.1 0.5 0.6
15 Mile Ilic 5 1.2 0.0 0.2 0.2
</PRE>the only reason a pg will lead a team in rebounding if the pg isnt 6'9 like magic. is if he has really bad rebounding big men. on top of the fact its strategic to grab the board so you can push it...LIKE MAGIC use to.
to prove my point further. lets look at Cp3, a triple double getter, cause he rebounds well. look at his numbers, i sorted it by total rebounds. notice how his numbers have slipped the moment he became a clipper. why is that? because Deandre jordan is grabbing close to 9 rebs per, and blake griffin is grabbing close to 11 rebs per. when he played in new orleans his bigs were around 8 rebs per game for the top guy and 7 and change for the next guy in line. thtas like 15 boards, to the math, clips bigs are around 20 per just those 2 starters. while new orleans was at around 15, someone else has to find the other 5 in the starting lineup. thats cp3 or 1 or 2 more and the others spread out to other players in the lineup.
Code:
<PRE>
Rk Player G MP ORB DRB TRB
1 Jason Kidd 80 36.7 1.7 6.5 8.2
2 Nenad Krstic 26 32.6 2.0 4.8 6.8
3 Vince Carter 82 38.1 1.4 4.6 6.0
4 Mikki Moore 79 26.4 1.8 3.3 5.1
5 Richard Jefferson 55 35.6 0.9 3.5 4.4
6 Jason Collins 80 23.1 1.1 2.8 4.0
7 Bostjan Nachbar 76 20.2 0.4 3.0 3.3
8 Josh Boone 61 11.0 1.0 1.8 2.9
9 Antoine Wright 63 18.0 0.6 2.2 2.8
10 Clifford Robinson 50 19.1 0.6 1.8 2.4
11 Marcus Williams 79 16.6 0.4 1.7 2.1
12 Eddie House 56 16.9 0.3 1.4 1.6
13 Hassan Adams 61 8.1 0.6 0.7 1.3
14 Bernard Robinson 10 3.7 0.1 0.5 0.6
15 Mile Ilic 5 1.2 0.0 0.2 0.2
</PRE>gary payton played with kemp most of his career. then played with lakers shaq, then shaq, haslem again in miami.
there were no rebs left for gp to go grab.
in addition Gp's seattle team even though they were run n gun to a degree. they had a much better half court game then j.kidd's nets. jkidd was intentionally going to grab def reb so he could push the tempo. GP didnt need to do that all the time in seattle because they had a better half court game. its that simple.
GP at 31 years old was averaging 6.5 rebs per game with seattle when they no longer had kemp. their best rebounder was an old man Horace grant, then vin baker. both under 8 rebs per.
MooseMouthMthafuga
Veteran
Payton is the best defender to ever play the position. In 11 years KJ played in under 60 games 4 times. GP didn't have any in 16 season. Payton was a very good scorer too, don't just claim KJ was better. Also, all star games, All NBA teams, All NBA defensive teams GP >>>>>KJ.
KJ had wayyy more Competition during his time.
He was competing against Zeke...Stockton..Magic...Price..prime Tim Hardaway.That's how he became so underrated.
Payton didn't really enter his prime until '98-'99
That was one of, if not the most, watered down periods in NBA history
torcher
Superstar
Gary Payton was one of the most overated players in Nba history. He shouldn't even be in the discussion with J. Kidd
MooseMouthMthafuga
Veteran
Kidd played with Shawn Marion for about 3 years....Marion averaged 10 rpg during that time.Marion might be the best rebounding Small Forward of all time.Back in his hey, he was a hound on the boards
1 Magic/Oscar
3. Zeke
4. Stockton
5. Kidd
3. Zeke
4. Stockton
5. Kidd
Check This Out
When J Kidd Was On The Floor, Between His Team And The Opponants There Were On Average About 7-8 Guys Bigger Than Him
When Gary Payton Was On The Floor, Between His Team And The Opponents There Were About 7-8 Guys Bigger Than Him
I Dunno Why Were Talking about REBOUNDS When Were Talking PGs Anyway, We Can Talk About Assists But We Know How That Will End
again, i see you dont know what you're talking about. who cares if his post game was awkward looking and methodical. IT WORKED. you couldnt stop it. i've seen that fool GP post up forwards and spin on them every which way for a basket. you could not stop him downlow on the block. PERIOD.
you just exposed yourself. you're looking for PRETTY. vs production. now granted his shot was suspect but unlike jkidd. gp was not afraid to shoot. jkidd came around late in his career as a legit shooter. the thing was jkidd always had good mechanics. but he was so nervous when shooting jumpers he shot the ball like a hot potatoe. that was since his days at CAL.
you talking about what was Gp'd defining moment. what was jkidd? he doesnt have one. and please dont bring up nothing with the mavs. he was old by then and nothing but a catch and shoot guy.
thats like me bringing up a defining moment where gp made a few timely baskets for the heat when he finally got a ring.
these guys are not magic. not even close. they are not I.thomas. so they wont have a bunch of "DEFINING moments" that we remember.
jkidd made wing players with athleticism better but only in an up tempo offense. Jkidd could not deal with a half court offense because..... hE couldnt and wouldnt shoot.
GP could run in a run n fun offense OR a half court offense. didnt matter to him.
thats the biggest difference between the two in their primes.
you talk about gary had his best year as a run n fun guy. yet you act as if all of jkidds best years were not in a run n fun offense. lucky for him he was in the east playing vs some of the worse comp the nba has ever seen in one conference at one time.
GP was playing power teams of the west, kings, jazz, rockets, depending on which year(the lakers, portland). the west was stacked... i mean we do recall GP won a DPOY in 95-96 season right?
Jkidd's nets beating up on the celtics (not the ones we saw win a ring. paul and chucking Antoine walker as your two goto guys and nothing else after those two. walker was a PF that hot below 40% from the field. awful.
the nets beat up on charlotte(hornets) :mashburn who was not the same after his injuries, baron davis who was pretty good but was a kid then 22 yrs old. and that was the end of that. no other big time players on that team.
and the one series they had a hard time winning. remember this i back when it was best out of 5, the series went 3-2. was vs the pacers. where they had a young Jermaine O'neal starting to ball at 23 years of age, older jalen rose doing his thing and old man 36 year old reggie miller still producing a little bit.
that was the tOugh east. LOL at that one.