Is Jay-Z the consensus GoAT at this point?

[really]

I was gonna come in here and say "Yea, he is", after MUCH stubbernnous over the years.... But I can't even do it...


"GOAT" isn't the right lable for Jay-Z.... You need to think up a new label:


-Most consistent rap career of all time
-Greatest balance of talent / commercial success / classics / longevity of all time
-Most accomplished rapped career of all time
-Best combination of lyricist / albums / sales / business mogul of all time



Pick ONE OF THOSE, and come up with a Funky tag for it, and THAT IS WHAT Jay-Z is..... But I cannot call him the "GOAT", because he isn't REMOTELY the greatest rapper to EVER touch a Mic...


Calling Jay-Z the "Goat" would be like calling Kobe Bryant the greatest basketball player of all time....


Kobe has had a LONG, CONSISTENT, and EXTREMELY well rounded Career.... With a Mix of ALL THE COMPONENTS...


But is he the GREATEST BASKETBALL PLAYER to ever step foot on a basketball Court?


Jordan is better in his prime.... Lebron is better in his prime.... Shaq is better in his prime... And maybe a long list of others...


Jordan had a shorter career, and got passed on the all time points list by Kobe.... Kobe automatically better? HELL NO...



LAD / RTD >>>> Any 2 albums in Jay's entire catelogue, and they came out 20 years ago and dropped back to back... 2 undeniable, ground breaking, hiphop classics.... in a 4 year period


Jay-Z on the other hand, has like 15 albums, and only 2 undeniable hiphop classics (Reasonable doubt, Blue print).... and NEITHER of those were GROUND BREAKING on the level of Illmatic, CHronic, DoggyStyle, Get Rich or Die trying... Etc etc.... Reasonable doubt didn't go platinum till 10 years later....



Could you imagine a basketball player have a better YEAR than Jordan's best year ever?...




As far as BEST YEARS IN HIPHOP HISTORY, Jay-Z probably doesn't even have a year in the top 15.... DEFINITELY not in the top 10....


Jordan probably has 4 or 5 of the top 10 best years EVER for a basketball player.....



That's what you label as "GOAT".... That G in "GOAT" stands for "GREATEST".... And if you don't have a top 10 year in hiphop history, there's no way in fukking HELL you can be called the greatest... It's not possible...


So go pick a label from the list in bold above... And make a thread on that... Because "Greatest of All Time" Shawn Carter is not.


http://www.thecoli.com/threads/jay-...d-the-ultimate-devils-advocate-thread.157468/


#FactsOnly

 

[really]

Biggest Albums In Hip Hop History By Year:


Jay said it himself: Men lie, Women Lie, Numbers dont?...


1996 - All Eyez on Me (9x Plat), The Score (6mil), It Was Written (4mil) (reasonable what?)
1997 - Life after Death, No Way Out, Wu-Tang Forever, Harlem World
1998 - Dark and Hell is Hot, The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill, 400 Degreez (can make the Argument Vol 2 >> 400 Degreez, but its no doubt 1998 was X's / Lauryn's year.. Sales + classics wise)
1999 - Chronic 2001, And then there was X..., Slim Shady LP
2000 - Marshall Mathers LP, Country Grammer
2001* - Stillmatic, *Bluprint, Word of Mouth, Pain is Love
2002 - Nellyville, The Eminem Show
2003 - Get Rich or Die Trying, SpeakerBoxx / Love Below
2004 - The College Drop out, Encore
2005 - Late Registration, The Massacre, The Documentary
2006* - Food and Liqour, *Kingdom Come, Doctors Advocate, Hip Hop is Dead
2007 - Graduation, Curtis, T.I. vs TIP
2008 - Carter 3, Paper Trail
2009 - Relapse, Only built 4 Cuban lynx 2
2010 - My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, Recovery, Thank me Later
2011 - Carter 4, Take Care
2012 - Good Kid Madd City
2013 - Marshall Mathers LP 2 or Nothing was the same (sales wise)




"Greatest of ALL TIME".... Never brought home ONE championship?

(The NBA's Goat, Jordan has 6.... Jay-Z = Goat = Negative)

 

[Cloud McFly]

I was gonna come in here and say "Yea, he is", after MUCH stubbernnous over the years.... But I can't even do it...


"GOAT" isn't the right lable for Jay-Z.... You need to think up a new label:


-Most consistent rap career of all time
-Greatest balance of talent / commercial success / classics of all time
-Most accomplished rapped career of all time
-Best combination of lyricist / albums / sales / business mogul of all time



Pick ONE OF THOSE, and come up with a Funky tag for it, and THAT IS WHAT Jay-Z is..... But I cannot call him the "GOAT", because he isn't REMOTELY the greatest rapper to EVER touch a Mic...


Calling Jay-Z the "Goat" would be like calling Kobe Bryant the greatest basketball player of all time....


Kobe has had a LONG, CONSISTENT, and EXTREMELY well rounded Career.... With a Mix of ALL THE COMPONENTS...


But is he the GREATEST BASKETBALL PLAYER to ever step foot on a basketball Court?


Jordan is better in his prime.... Lebron is better in his prime.... Shaq is better in his prime... And maybe a long list of others...


Jordan had a shorter career, and got passed on the all time points list by Kobe.... Kobe automatically better? HELL NO...



LAD / RTD >>>> Any 2 albums in Jay's entire catelogue, and they came out 20 years ago and dropped back to back... 2 undeniable, ground breaking, hiphop classics.... in a 4 year period


Jay-Z on the other hand, has like 15 albums, and only 2 undeniable hiphop classics (Reasonable doubt, Blue print).... and NEITHER of those were GROUND BREAKING on the level of Illmatic, CHronic, DoggyStyle, Get Rich or Die trying... Etc etc.... Reasonable doubt didn't go platinum till 10 years later....



Could you imagine a basketball player have a better YEAR than Jordan's best year ever?...



As far as BEST YEARS IN HIPHOP HISTORY, Jay-Z probably doesn't even have a year in the top 15.... DEFINITELY not in the top 10....


Jordan probably has 4 or 5 of the top 10 best years EVER for a basketball player.....



That's what you label as "GOAT".... That G in "GOAT" stands for "GREATEST".... ANd if you don't have a top 10 year in hiphop history, there's no way in fukking HELL you can be called the greatest... It's not possible...


So go pick a label from the list in bold above... And make a thread on that... Because "Greatest of All Time" Shawn Carter is not.

With all that said, who do you feel deserves the title then? Are you saying that nobody deserves it?

 

[Julius Skrrvin]

The difference between Jay Z and Nas is that Jay Z has proven that he can do with Nas can (lyricism, depth, abstract applications of philosophy and street life). Nas has NOT proven that he can do what Jay Z can (commercial longevity, QUALITY club music, QUALITY party songs, etc.). Say what you will about Jay, even if he's not the GOAT, he has a MUCH better case for himself than Nas does

I am a dyed in the wool flag carrying Hov stan but let's keep it real; Nas can do somethings Jay can't and Jay can do some thing Nas can't.

Nas's song concepts and verse writing are conceptually super amazing. The way he uses language to describe things is on another level. Plus he can make conscious music, and Hov is mediocre/bad at that. Hov is a little mediocre about rapping about things from anything but a conversational standpoint. That's just his style though.

At the same time Nas can't pick a beat, his choruses are mediocre, and he never understood how to make production work FOR him instead of dominating it; which is one of many reasons he can't make commercial records, quality cross-genre collabs, etc.

 

[Bickin Back Being Bool]

atleast as a hov stan i can acknowledge that Nas is the better rapper, but there are alot of rappers technically better than Hov, but that don't make them great.

 

[JuvenileHell]

The difference between Jay Z and Nas is that Jay Z has proven that he can do with Nas can (lyricism, depth, abstract applications of philosophy and street life). Nas has NOT proven that he can do what Jay Z can (commercial longevity, QUALITY club music, QUALITY party songs, etc.). Say what you will about Jay, even if he's not the GOAT, he has a MUCH better case for himself than Nas does

Jay isn't a better storyteller than Nas, nor is he better at concious tracks than Nas is.

 

[Bickin Back Being Bool]

pretty sure Nelly and 50 will trade that diamond plaque for Hov's career now

 

[really]

nikkas gonna hate it, But Nas, while a top 3 lyricist and holding the wild card of having the consensus GOAT album in "Illmatic", isn't no damn goat either.... He simply never had the commercial success to be labled the "Goat" of the entire hiphop industry in HISTORY, sorry.... Jay-Z is more of a Goat than Nas is, I'll say that....



2pac / Biggie (only 2 with a LEGIT argument for greatest of all time... Take your pick and make your case)



Eminem / Jay-Z / Nas / Lil Wayne (These 4 can battle it out for 3rd place, depending on what factors matter most to you: Sales, lyrics, impact, classics, longevity etc etc... a LEGIT case can be made for all 4)

 

[Hood Critic]

 

[OG Talk]

Jay-Z hasn't put out a good album in 7 years..To put that in perspective, Pac's WHOLE rap career spanded 4 years..

The longer he raps the more damage he does to his legacy....If he's still rapping about how he "used to sell crack" and how "rocky his wrist" is at the age of 50 (which at this rate is a real possibility) he might fall out of the top 10 all together...


Right now he's inbetween 5-8...

 

[really]

pretty sure Nelly and 50 will trade that diamond plaque for Hov's career now

That's the point.....


Nelly / 50 = shytty lyrics but diamond Plaques
Jay-Z = pretty good lyrics, longevity, and respected trendsetter
Nas = ill lyricist with the goat album


Michael Jordan = Ill lyrics (check), Longevity (check), respected trendsetter (check), Diamond plaques (check), AND the GOAT album (illmatic = 1992 season... Gold medal, title, MVP, finals MVP, world wide commercial success)


Do you see the difference? (of course you do, but will you admit it, that's the question)


Jay-Z has too many Chinks in his armor.... You have to combine his career high points with 50's / Nellys and Nas to even COME CLOSE to being what Jordan was in Basketball....


MJ HAS IT ALL.....



2 Closest to MJ in hiphop are Biggie / 2pac.... Take your pick, Make your Argument. Shawn Carter isn't in that lane.

 

[Will Ross]

nas is the goat

 

[The Ruler 09]

There's no true consensus, but Pac is the most popular GOAT choice.

 

[Julius Skrrvin]

Jay isn't a better storyteller than Nas, nor is he better at concious tracks than Nas is.

Dudes really bag on Hov for the storytelling though. I guess it's because he never does it in 3rd person? I personally think some of his best tracks are stories; Friend or Foe pt 1 and 2, Regrets, A Week Ago, December 4th, Coming of Age, Song Cry etc. Eh.

Jay-Z hasn't put out a good album in 7 years..To put that in perspective, Pac's WHOLE rap career spanded 4 years..

The longer he raps the more damage he does to his legacy....If he's still rapping about how he "used to sell crack" and how "rocky his wrist" is at the age of 50 (which at this rate is a real possibility) he might fall out of the top 10 all together...


Right now he's inbetween 5-8...

Yeah you'll say this, but then not call Nas out for being somewhat inconsistent from 1996-2001 and being REALLY inconsistent from 2001-2012.

I don't hold Joe Louis or Larry Holmes fighting on past their primes against them either.

 

[Lugud]

Yeah Jay Z dominated hip-hop on all levels

Has made some of the greatest albums OAT (RD, BP1, TBA)

Has dominated the game for the longest time now (MCHG may have been bad but those numbers he did )

Birthed a new successful protege (J. Cole even tho album suck compared to tapes)

As tons of great albums outside of his classics (Vol. 1, 2, AG)

I mean Hov just the full package, yeah Nas done some crazy shyt with his career too, but he never popped off like Hov did

Pac too inconsistent sometimes, too much filler

Biggie only has two albums (but damn those albums are GOAT)

Eminem fell off and will never be on again, but Jay can still drop heat 10-15 years into his career

Hov just a beast MC in all aspects