Isiah Thomas finished top 5 in MVP voting one time in his whole career

[FabTrey]

The designation "shooting guard" didn't exist during West's career. In his day the terms were lead guard, which evolved to "point" guard; and off guard, which evolved to "shooting" guard...

In real time of his career West was known as a lead guard, primarily. In the 51 years sibce his retirement people have referred to him as a "shooting guard" because of his unique shooting and scoring skill that was rare for his era, aside from he and Robertson. Basketball heads started calling him a shooting guard but he was viewed as a point in his career...

Stockton got 0 Top 5 finishes to Zeke's 1, not much of a gap there. And these basketball lists that get published show that people don't really think there's a large gap between them, many have Stockton over Zeke...

This is a black basketball forum so Zeke gets held in higher regard here than other mediums...

And you cant say "well big men got all the MVP votes" when its easily disproven how many non-bigs were getting Top 5 finishes during Zeke's career. Hell, you named 3 of em...

Zeke was a great player. He just isn't a Top 3 point. Even if you take West out he's not better than Steph, Magic, or O. One can easily make the debate Stockton or Paul are better than Zeke. Amd if you consider Harden a point it gets even scarier for Zeke...

you just proved my point. it's very hard to finish top 5. just look at these names.


1981–82

1. Moses Malone
2. Larry Bird
3. Magic Johnson
4. George Gervin
5. Julius Erving

1982–83

1. Moses Malone
2. Larry Bird
3. Magic Johnson
4. Sidney Moncrief
5. Julius Erving

1983–84

1. Larry Bird
2. Bernard King
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Isiah Thomas

1984–85

1. Larry Bird
2. Magic Johnson
3. Moses Malone
4. Dominique Wilkins
5. Michael Jordan

1985–86

1. Larry Bird
2. Dominique Wilkins
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Alex English

1986–87

1. Magic Johnson
2. Michael Jordan
3. Larry Bird
4. Dominique Wilkins
5. Hakeem Olajuwon

1987–88

1. Michael Jordan
2. Larry Bird
3. Magic Johnson
4. Charles Barkley
5. Hakeem Olajuwon

1988–89

1. Magic Johnson
2. Michael Jordan
3. Charles Barkley
4. Karl Malone
5. Patrick Ewing

1989–90

1. Magic Johnson
2. Charles Barkley
3. Michael Jordan
4. Karl Malone
5. Patrick Ewing

1990–91

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Charles Barkley
4. David Robinson
5. Patrick Ewing

he ain't getting top 5 votes unless he puts up serious stats.


cp3? nah. he ain't passing zeke unless he wins a chip.

west is a first combo guard, but he is considered a shooting guard last i checked. he was a SCORER first. it doesn't matter if he led the league in assts. lakers had other pgs.

 

[murksiderock]

you just proved my point. it's very hard to finish top 5. just look at these names.


1981–82

1. Moses Malone
2. Larry Bird
3. Magic Johnson
4. George Gervin
5. Julius Erving

1982–83

1. Moses Malone
2. Larry Bird
3. Magic Johnson
4. Sidney Moncrief
5. Julius Erving

1983–84

1. Larry Bird
2. Bernard King
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Isiah Thomas

1984–85

1. Larry Bird
2. Magic Johnson
3. Moses Malone
4. Dominique Wilkins
5. Michael Jordan

1985–86

1. Larry Bird
2. Dominique Wilkins
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Alex English

1986–87

1. Magic Johnson
2. Michael Jordan
3. Larry Bird
4. Dominique Wilkins
5. Hakeem Olajuwon

1987–88

1. Michael Jordan
2. Larry Bird
3. Magic Johnson
4. Charles Barkley
5. Hakeem Olajuwon

1988–89

1. Magic Johnson
2. Michael Jordan
3. Charles Barkley
4. Karl Malone
5. Patrick Ewing

1989–90

1. Magic Johnson
2. Charles Barkley
3. Michael Jordan
4. Karl Malone
5. Patrick Ewing

1990–91

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Charles Barkley
4. David Robinson
5. Patrick Ewing

he ain't getting top 5 votes unless he puts up serious stats.


cp3? nah. he ain't passing zeke unless he wins a chip.

west is a first combo guard, but he is considered a shooting guard last i checked. he was a SCORER first. it doesn't matter if he led the league in assts. lakers had other pgs.

10 guys in the 10-year sample size you listed weren't big men, and I counted Barkley as a big for you Isiah didn't finish in MVP more often because he wasn't on that level then, and he doesn't deserve retroactive, revisionist placement...

Look at the names on this 10-year sample. Isiah wasn't a Top 5 player of his era. I'd grant that he was Top 10 of the 80s but yall gotta slow down giving him this exaggerated standing...

 

[FabTrey]

10 guys in the 10-year sample size you listed weren't big men, and I counted Barkley as a big for you Isiah didn't finish in MVP more often because he wasn't on that level then, and he doesn't deserve retroactive, revisionist placement...

Look at the names on this 10-year sample. Isiah wasn't a Top 5 player of his era. I'd grant that he was Top 10 of the 80s but yall gotta slow down giving him this exaggerated standing...

Zeke wasnt a top 5 stat guy. I'll give you that. But there’s a reason for the outrage over his exclusion from the dream team.

The argument isn’t just about whether he was top 5 or not. The issue is that OP considers him overrated simply because he never finished in the top five of MVP voting, despite the well documented fact that Zeke adjusted his game—sacrificing a scorer’s mentality—to become a better pg and lead the Pistons effectively. And I argued it's virtually impossible to crack top 5 in mvp when you have big 3. Andthen there are bigs and prolific stat guys right behind them. Without serious stats he had no chance.

IMO, stats dont make the player. Zeke was him in that era.

 

[CHICAGO]

Everyone knows Isiah was the leader of that team. You say they won because of defense, so why didn’t they have a single player who made the All Defense team?

DUMARS, RODMAN?

YOU LITERALLY MADE
A THREAD ABOUT RODMAN
WINNING DPOY


​

 

[Po pimp]

DUMARS, RODMAN?

YOU LITERALLY MADE
A THREAD ABOUT RODMAN
WINNING DPOY


​

I thought basketball-reference listed the All Defense nods next to their names like they do for All NBA when you go to that specific roster. Apparently they don’t.

 

[Jplaya2023]

That Lakers team that Michael beat was well past its best days

Whom has said differently? Dudes in here make up their own narratives and try to argue 4 it.

 

[Erratic415]

Unless I am misremembering something Detroit would have 3peated if Thomas didn't twist his ankle in one of those years that Detroit was in the Finals. He also won a national title when he was at Indiana. He was a fantastic player and he played for his team rather than for individual stats.

Detroit had a good shot at winning in 88’. Up 3-2 in game 6, Isiah injured his ankle in the middle of the 3rd Q, but still finished the quarter with 25 pts.

Detroit was up 3 pts with a minute left, but gave up a jumper to Byron Scott and then didn’t score when they got the ball back. The light ticky-tack foul on Laimbeer was costly, as Detroit was up 1 with about 15 seconds to go. It wouldn’t have locked up the series for Detroit as we still don’t know if the Lakers would score afterwards (or if Worthy gets the offensive rebound), but it definitely would put the Pistons in a good spot.



Then Thomas had limited effectiveness in game 7 and the Pistons lost by 3.

I wouldn’t say it necessarily means Detroit 3-peats though. Things can change due to complacency or attitudes (Pat Riley’s whole Disease of More thing), or the exhaustion that teams trying to 3-peat often seem to face

 

[Mantis Toboggan M.D.]

Detroit had a good shot at winning in 88’. Up 3-2 in game 6, Isiah injured his ankle in the middle of the 3rd Q, but still finished the quarter with 25 pts.

Detroit was up 3 pts with a minute left, but gave up a jumper to Byron Scott and then didn’t score when they got the ball back. The light ticky-tack foul on Laimbeer was costly, as Detroit was up 1 with about 15 seconds to go. It wouldn’t have locked up the series for Detroit as we still don’t know if the Lakers would score afterwards (or if Worthy gets the offensive rebound), but it definitely would put the Pistons in a good spot.



Then Thomas had limited effectiveness in game 7 and the Pistons lost by 3.

I wouldn’t say it necessarily means Detroit 3-peats though. Things can change due to complacency or attitudes (Pat Riley’s whole Disease of More thing), or the exhaustion that teams trying to 3-peat often seem to face

Outside of the 2013-14 spurs I’ve can’t think of a team that was so openly motivated to make up for a championship round loss as the 1988-89 pistons. With that 1988 title they probably don’t win in 89 and without the Adrian Dantley & Mark Aguirre trade who knows what happens next? Still, that foul call almost certainly cost them the title.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Everyone knows Isiah was the leader of that team. You say they won because of defense, so why didn’t they have a single player who made the All Defense team? They were third in defensive rating.

I thought basketball-reference listed the All Defense nods next to their names like they do for All NBA when you go to that specific roster. Apparently they don’t.

This proves you probably shouldn't be debating this topic in the first place.

 

[Po pimp]

This proves you probably shouldn't be debating this topic in the first place.

The main point was people diminishing Isiah’s role on the team. I’m fully aware the Pistons were a defensive team. People saying Isiah was the Chauncey Billups of that team. The only thing they had in common was play PG. Billups wasn’t even an All Star yet when the Pistons won the chip in 2004.

 

[Hacksaw Jim Thuggin]

another case of stats dont tell the full story....

most of you nikkas was born in the 90s and never saw zeka play outside of youtube

zeke was the engine of that team

 

[fifth column]

These dudes on here don't understand that Magic, Bird or Zeke only made it to 12-13 years playing them dudes was routinely playing DEEP into the playoffs and that shyt added 2-3 years onto their careers. No load management, no state of the art training, nutritionists, just gym and the weights.

Magic was DONE when Jordan faced him

So how did MJ and the Bulls manage to 3-peat when they were old? Y’all so transparent

 

[NYC Rebel]

another case of stats dont tell the full story....

most of you nikkas was born in the 90s and never saw zeka play outside of youtube

zeke was the engine of that team

And the closer for the team

 

[Art Barr]

This is when you know we're only living in the stats era that people actually care about how many MVP top 5 votings you got or the numbers you put up in scoring.

I guess that makes James Harden and Russell Westbrook better than Isiah huh

If there was some time machine.

That assembled those pgs to choose from.

I take harden and triple double russ over zeke.

As both are taller and have intangibles zeke can not make up for. Such as a dribbke drive dominance, in air artistry, consistent triple double in assist like numbers.

Harden is essily a pick over zeke.
As well as russ on paper.


It was laimbeer who figured out the race dynamic. So the pistons. Could match the boston cheat2win dynamic ideal in that era.

If laimbeer never goes to notre dame and beats wooten. To stop the ucla win streak.
Laimbeer is never full of himself. To think he could flagrant foul bird. [Before flsgrant foul was a household term or even coined]
to cause confusion.
using the race dynamic. To even out all the nonsense.
that took place.
in regard to playing and hopefully beating boston.

If no laimbeer at notre dame. To feel notre dame was higher in pedigree. than bird transfering from being a knight hoosier to indiana state.
The pistons never beat boston.

To over process zeke legacy.

As laimbeer is who figured out the race dynamic and executed.
what needed to be done to beat boston. Which entailed an understanding of more than just hoops. To beat boston in that time and era.


Art Barr

 

[Art Barr]

By the time Mitch started making all nba teams Isiah was done

Mitch was the next best skill player after mike tho.

Art Barr