Jamal Crawford explains how Westbrook is viewed differently between players and "stat guys"

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

big facts here.. never thought of it like that

What he said reminded me of this other tweet I saw a while ago



Nerds on twitter were saying Ant had empty stats and was overrated on that day after the game

You can tell who genuinely loves basketball while understanding it at it's core and who simply sees it simply as an avenue for analytics and smart-dumb debates

Skip Bayless gave these geeks the freedom to infiltrate the culture and discourse of basketball with zero to shallow levels of understanding

Never forget

 

[HandyWithTheSteel]

So stat guys ruined the game, but then y’all praise Westbrook’s statlines?

So which one is it?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Answer my question with a question? I answered your question with an answer, oblige me.

Except you didn't really answer my question. You bobbed and weaved because you know if you answered it properly, you'd only be proving my point.

Objective of the game = win = scoring more points than the opposition = points = numbers = stats.

A true fan of the game would at the very least acknowledge the game is about winning, would they not? Which would, therefore, mean they care about numbers/stats would they not? Why are stats outside of the traditional box score classified as nerd stats, and stats inside it are not? A number is a number; a metric is a metric. Either all numbers are nerd stats, or none are.

I feel like I've reiterated this about 1000x now, but box score stats are completely misleading and an archaic way of measuring impact. Nxggas is just lazy and want to drown themselves in ignorance for why they can't see this.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Nerds on twitter were saying Ant had empty stats and was overrated on that day after the game

And barbershop take ass nxggas were saying he was going to be a bust.

Funny how random generalizations about a group to fuel one's agenda works, ain't it?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

all facts. Ballers respect certain players way more than the general public does

Of course, they do. The NBA is a fraternity. Rarely ever do you see players coming out and criticizing each other. That's how you quickly alienate yourself from your peers. "Stat guys" and basketball fans, in general, are meant to criticize the players/teams. It's the nature of the sport, for a fan. And on some level, fans respect all players who make it into the league. Just because players like Westbrook are criticized doesn't mean that fans still don't appreciate his play, the feats he's accomplished and/or the level he's played at during his career.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

at the end of the day their little actuarial tables and algorithms get proven wrong time and time again.

last year was supposed to be the bucks year
hawks was their favorite thing for years, now it's the jazz.

at the end of the day the game is played on the court, not in an excel sheet or a simulation.

i feel like the dubs gave the nerds a lot of credence but they had the most atypical of situations and we've seen that it's not easy (maybe not possible) to replicate.

the nerds will lose out in the end or the NBA will die a slow death like baseball.

What the fukk is you even talking about?

Y'all clown ass nxggas love making these straw man arguments. The league is entirely 3-pt orientated now (the very thing y'all muh'fukkas blamed on the nerds), so if the nerds are wrong, then who's right? And when has the game ever not been about not scoring the most points?

 

[Blackrogue]

With the game being so three point oriented. I wonder how much value is placed on attacking certain players in the paint and causing them to be in foul trouble. How much it tires out opposing teams on defense and causes them to collapse

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

I love seeing flawed players like Russ that break the mold. He's style won't necessarily win a championship as the main guy but he's entertaining as hell which as a fan is the thing I care most about. I personally don't hate the analytics community and understand why teams lean into their analytics department as winning is the ultimate goal of organizations. One thing I do think his a blind spot of analytics is the domino effect of basketball.

Well, that would certainly explain a lot about your views.

And that's fine, nobody can tell you otherwise what you want to take out of the game. But it seems you let that cloud your judgement around what is analytics and how they're implemented, which is putting teams/players in the best possible position of winning, which is ultimately the aim of the game. Analytics aren't there to exist for your entertainment.

And your point about post-ups being a blind spot of analytics is wrong. Analytics is all about finding the most efficient way of putting the ball in the hoop. If you have a player like Jokic who can run the offense from the post, efficiently and fluidly, analytics will tell you so. Y'all nxggas treat analytics as some damn boogeyman that is responsible for all that's wrong in the game.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

How do those things go together? I fully understand why and how the analytics community changed the game but as a fan of basketball doesn't mean I have to love the result of those changes. It makes sense to try and limit field goal attempts to layups at the rim and three pointers. The points per possession for those types of shots are by far the highest.

I just hate that it's lead to this homogeneous style of play with so many teams looking exactly the same. I hate that it's lead to so many teams forgoing offensive rebounds and getting back on D as it's lead to a lot less fast breaks. I hate that the midrange game is being downplayed so much as I used to love seeing players go one on one and showcase the footwork and pumpfakes to get those shots off. I hate seeing so many three pointers being shot. Coincidentally I think those two factors actually play a role in Russ getting so many triple doubles as there aren't as many teams going as hard for offensive rebounds plus with so many more threes being shot it leads to more long rebounds.

I love seeing flawed players like Russ that break the mold. He's style won't necessarily win a championship as the main guy but he's entertaining as hell which as a fan is the thing I care most about. I personally don't hate the analytics community and understand why teams lean into their analytics department as winning is the ultimate goal of organizations. One thing I do think his a blind spot of analytics is the domino effect of basketball..

And on another point:

Westbrook doesn't really break the mold does he, if his style of play doesn't lead to success as the main guy? You're essentially making a pro-analytics argument without even knowing it. Your stance would make a lot more sense if analytics/nerd stats actually set out to entertain folks.

It's all about winning; not trying to entertain.

 

[Thavoiceofthevoiceless]

Basketball discourse is trash.

"Stat guys" ruined the game, but then y'all muh'fukkas use stats as a counterargument (and for everything in between), as is the case here with triple doubles.

It’s so much hypocrisy going on in this thread and dudes don’t even realize it

They downplay and complain about stats and analytics, but have no problem using same said stats to fit a narrative or topic discussion

They also use same said stats in arguing of why one player is better than another

Even NBA players are hypocritical when it comes to stats as they point to those same stats as to why they should make All Star or All NBA team over someone else. It’s disingenuous as hell. They have no problem or talking about or mentioning those stats when it works in their favor.

 

[Thavoiceofthevoiceless]

I really believe this whole “stats guys ruined basketball” stems from insecurity of people who are too lazy or stupid to understand the mathematical concepts that drive why certain basketball choices are made.

That’s exactly what it is. They’d rather complain about the concepts than actually try to understand mathematical concepts. The same people bytching about them are the same ones who complain about why are those type of courses needed in high school and college.

It’s no wonder our country and schools are lagging behind compared to others

 

[Babymama Magnet]

You do realize basketball was created by a white man, and the base concepts of the sport were mostly engineered by white men?

fukk are you talking about?

Actually Breh, the concept of basketball... "a game where you put a ball through a circular hoop" was created by the Mayan/Aztecs.

It was James Naismith who took this concept and created the rules for it which we know today as Basketball

 

[OfTheCross]

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

And barbershop take ass nxggas were saying he was going to be a bust.

Funny how random generalizations about a group to fuel one's agenda works, ain't it?

Hit dogs holler

 

[mastermind]

Are “stat guys” the ones talking about how amazing Westbrook’s triple double numbers are? Are those not stats?

Are NBA front offices of championship teams stat guys? No one wants Russy.