Joe Budden perfectly explains how NY hip hop fell in the early 2000s

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He said that if MC hot from atlanta just started dissing everyone..



:heh:


This guy is so hilarious, STEP YO GAME UP. Like Hov did. He got killed by Nas and still came out on top.

Meanwhile Joe Budden making pump it up :laff:
 

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I wondering if most of you were even around lol This whole idea of 50 shutting down other rappers is silly cause Hot 97 played around the clock...

Ja Rule "Clap Back"
Ja Rule "Wonderful"
Ja Rule "New York"
Fat Joe "So Much More"
D-Block "Mighty D-Block"

That doesn't include whatever offerings that Cam or Nas had at the time which radio supported. No man can stop another man from eating with a viable product. 50 was blowing smoke up yall asses with that one and so is Joe. Did he have super juice with Interscope in those years? I would imagine greatly but 50 never shut them nikkax out radio wise nor altered their careers except Ja.

You want to know the real reason why NYC fell off??? The early 00 crop of rappers didn't hold up there end of the bargain. I'm going to fly some names by you...

Bathgate
Shea Davis
Uncle Murda
Murda Mook
Gravy
Shellz
Maino
Papoose
Saigon
Team Arliss
Stack Bundlez
JR Writer
40 Cal
Grafh
Ali Vegas
A-Team (Hitchcock & Ransom)

That's to name a few. All of these guys had prominent DJs & publications behind them but aside from Maino NONE OF THEM COULD MAKE A HIT. Either these guys were boring on the mic or they struggled with making accessible music. NYC hitched their star on these guys like they were destined to end up like 97 NYC Class of X, Pun, Nore, Cam & The Lox or even further back like the HOFs. NYC thought that due to past success the world would just bow down to them just because and any ol thing they put out would be accepted.

Can't blame 50 for the fact that there is literally a whole generation of NYC rappers who got lost at sea on their own


Rip stack, he was next :mjcry:


 

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Joe's entire point is built on selective memory. He's for some reason saying 50 being so competitive killed the NY Rap scene, forgetting that NY always had infighting occurring.

and the South was not super collaborative back in 2003 regardless of what 2chainz said on EDS a few months back. Remember, TI vs. Luda, TI/Flip, Jeezy/Gucci, the list goes on..

This killed NY, if anything:
1. Business model shift (ring tone rap)
2. More people with access to high-speed internet.
3. YouTube (self publish music) came out in 2005
4. Lack of ambition to differentiate from the status quo
5. Add on..


5. Papoose and Saigon

:laff::laff::laff:



South easily had better sounding music than the east AND STILL DOES.
 

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You only say that about TM101 because you've seen the last 10 years of knock offs trying to match that sound... when it came out there wasn't shyt like it....

But you weren't listening to hip-hop when it came out, so......

TM101 was hard as bricks :ohlawd:


The ad libs ALONE were GAME CHANGERS.


Standing Ovation :whew:

And then what :noah:

Cook the rest of the yams at my auntie house :ahh:


Go crazy :ohlawd:

Sould survivor :wow:

Akon was on some shyt back then



GET YA MIND RIGHT :wow::wow::wow:

Haaaa-haaaaaaaaaa


Air Forces?? :wow:


Tear it up???



Wtf they talking about overhyped lmmfaoooooo :russ:
 

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I agree....but it ended up doing more damage than good...
A generic trap song with a strong 808 can get my adrenaline going, but where is the balance?

Like I'm not a hater of any region..
I just look at it like a plate of food..
The South started giving the game more dessert than a well rounded mea..

I really think if nikkas like juelz/fab/lloyd banks would have done what they were supposed to, ny would have still been strong..

A trio of certified spitters, had hits on hits too.

To me From Nothin to Somethin was the MOST UNDERRATED ALBUM OF ALL TIME, hands down.


But end of the day That trio has a monotonous flow most times
 

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A trio of certified spitters, had hits on hits too.

To me From Nothin to Somethin was the MOST UNDERRATED ALBUM OF ALL TIME, hands down.


But end of the day That trio has a monotonous flow most times

I wasn't a big fan of any of them..:yeshrug:but they were the potential building blocks for the next gen..

Ny got confused and couldn't find its way..

Then the chicken noodle soup era/aunt Jackie era got put down before it got off the ground properly..who knows what it could have potentially turned into:yeshrug:

Ny pretty much lost its grip from there...
 

AJaRuleStan

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he made this perfectly clear

50 had interscope... 50 would RAP about joe, nas, ja, jay, etc... that's fine.. but interscope would be the ones approaching radio saying "if you play such and such, we won't let you play any interscope records"

so that's behind the scene shyt.. no 50 didn't directly do that.. but 50 and his millions of beefs, would have iovine do the dirty work.. and if i'm radio and it's 2003 and i have to choose between 50, Em, Dre and all of interscope vs some ny rappers... hell yea i want my job, fukk ja rule.

the artists you named wasn't getting no fukking radio play regardless. which is why joe said it's half on radio. cause they only care about numbers. so nah papoose ain't getting no damn play on nyc radio... THAT IS A PROBLEM.. an nyc artist, who nyc was in love with, can't get plays on hometown radio, which happens to be the largest radio station in the world (at the time)..
Your re-explanation of Joe's argument doesn't relieve the holes I saw the first time around, which is that there is no casual relationship being directly demonstrated between the act of Interscope&50 allegedly blocking Ja, Fat Joe and D-Block from radio, and the inability of the artists I named from my previous post to get over big.
 

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Everyone on the panel touched on some reasons why. Basically from my perspective, having worked at the label mentioned the most in the video...

1. Lack of evolution.

In many ways, NY rap basically boiled down to the same blueprint for well over a decade. You needed street records for the streets, and a poppy rap n bullshyt single for the masses. R&B chick on the hook. The rapper put very little effort in crafting an actual SONG. Often the tracks came as-is, the rapper just needed to add 3 verses and that was that. This birthed a generation of rappers who were melodically challenged and unprepared to deal with any shift in trends. I love Nas, he's my favorite rapper...but in many ways he utterly fails at crafting radio SONGS. The same applies to just about every NY rapper. 50 Cent figured out how to master creating SONGS, and he blew up. Post 50....NY rappers were still trying the rap n bullshyt route but that shyt was basically dead outside of a few outliers, like Empire State Of Mind.

2. 50 Cent

Yes, 50 put his foot on the neck of NY. He starved fellow NY artists. And when he fell off no one was there to take his place. He killed his own career with over saturation of wack, repetitive records and by that time the south had already taken over.

3. Samples

Pretty obvious here but goes back to point 1. NY has been unable to craft music that doesn't rely on sampling, jacking r&b hooks, etc. When was the last time a major NY producer came up? Look at every other major region. They all have HUGE producers today or in the last few years. Metro, Mustard, Kanye, 40, Bo1da, DJ Dahi, etc etc etc. Where's NY's hit maker?

The south is making music that is not only smashing charts, but economically viable. Metro isn't losing publishing money to clear samples. Labels aren't worrying about clearing big samples that make or break songs. They're creating beats from scratch, or from some sounds provided by someone like Frank Dukes. It's an amazing set up...

4. The internet

Blowing up today is more about winning the people than anything else. It doesn't matter what you sound like, if people fukk with you they fukk with you. Kendrick doesn't sound west coast (outside of his slang), Cole doesn't sound sothern, Chance doesn't sound like Chicago, etc. New York hasn't been able to find a rapper like that. So many of their rappers are hell bent on replicating 50 or Hov or Nas instead of giving people what they want.

5. The south and west are playing chess, not checkers

Think about what's going on in LA, Atlanta, and Toronto right now. In LA, TDE has one of (if not the) best engineer in rap. They have an amazingly talented group of in-house producers. They're building studios and sucking up talent, including from outside Cali; when they signed Isiah Rashad, they also signed his producer friends from Tennessee, and they helped craft one of the biggest albums of the year (SZA's CTRL). They're BUILDING for the future.

Atlanta is full of great engineers and producers. Mike Will has an incredibly talented in-house production team that is crafting HIT records. Metro/808 Mafia/etc are doing the same thing. They're constantly signing new producers, constantly getting new guys some studio time, etc. They're building for the future.

OVO is signing producers like crazy. Also song writers (wink wink). 40 is one of the best engineers in rap and he's teaching the squad. They're building for the future.

There's not a single relevant producer in NY that I can think of. Premo, Pete Rock, Statik, etc etc have been remaking the same beats for years. The talent under them isn't breaking out either. There was a time when Alchemist was Premo's assistant, and of course Alch blew up. That's not happening in NY anymore. The scene is stagnant, which means the music is stagnant.
 

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Your re-explanation of Joe's argument doesn't relieve the holes I saw the first time around, which is that there is no casual relationship being directly demonstrated between the act of Interscope&50 allegedly blocking Ja, Fat Joe and D-Block from radio, and the inability of the artists I named from my previous post to get over big.

there is the problem... cause the artists you named never was trying to get big. in what era was papoose and saigon supposed to blow up and become stars? what's their radio hits? what's their big song?

the issue that joe and others are trying to explain, is that nyc ALWAYS played underground LOCAL rappers... shyt they was known for it. and it gave those who wasn't trying to make it big, the platform to at least make themselves known, bubble mid to low tier, maybe rise, maybe not

instead radio said fukk that... we gonna play only the big artist from the whole US.. and if you ain't that, we don't care if you live 30 minutes away, fukk you..



well meanwhile in the south and the west.. these nikkas was supporting the fukk out of each other. didn't matter if you was gucci and jeezy on the come up... or nipsey on the come up.. or rick ross on the come up... or TI on the come up.. or what.. you was getting HEAVY play in your local area.. and that would make other areas take notice, and push you over the top over there too

radio and local artist would work together to keep their city alive.. so they could all eat.. which is why the south has entire regions that blow (houston, atl, florida), while pushing low to mid tier artists... meanwhile 2000s nyc, you come out the gate with a smash or it was fukk you
 

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50cent didn't kill NY hiphop. NY killed themselves by hopping on the south's sounds in the later 90's and after that it was only a matter of time before the full takeover was bound to happen because the South was innovating the hottest new styles/sounds while NY was till stuck on a specific sound that was becoming stale. So once Ny cosigned the south, it was a wrap.

when your whole region decides it wants to be a sellout like puff and compromises the Mecca.
you wind up with what happened to NYC.

nikkaz wanted to be jiggy like the DJ Hollywood era with puff as the new DJ Hollywood type and the rest is the descent.
all this oh such n such blah blah blah is because ny was to p*ssy to eviscerate that wack nikka puff.
till eventually every rcord label got them the same type of artist and priced culture based rap out of the marketplace and relevancy.



art barr

In a nutshell...

The South simply found the Business Model that the Labels and Radio found appealing...

"Catering to HOES who patronize clubs ans listen to radio friendly music"....

HOES KILLED HIP HOP...end of story

It put TRADITIONAL NYC artists (spitters) and producers (sample based) in a compromising position...

You either adapt like 50 and Jay were able to do or become irrelevant in the eyes of programmers like Ebro Darden (hot 97) and former programmer Doc Wynter (power 105) who stated....

"Early on, you would rarely ever hear a Southern-grown hip-hop song on the radio in New York," says Wynter, who plays a major role in roughly 40 stations nationwide, including WWPR New York.

"Now the lines are blurred and nothing is out of the realm of possibility. The hits can come from anywhere." As can the listeners: "Our terrestrial stations are still our priorities, but our digital stations are of equal importance now," says Wynter, who also oversees the urban stations on Clear Channel's iHeartRadio.."

Urban Power List: Doc Wynter

brand-manager-for-urbanurban-ac-clear-channel-doc-wynter-attends-picture-id186650559


So I agree with Joe on that one point that Power 105 going hard with the digital/internet format via iHeartRadio and forcing Hot 97 to follow suit also played a major part in NYCs demise

ALL FACTS
 

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Once the ringtone era hit where nikkas stopped caring about artistry and more about downloads, it became a wrap...

Labels seen a way to cut costs and build their bottom line..

There were plenty of southern artists who were products of the southern wave who had 1 hit and exited right after...

The bigger picture was that southern artists who were actually dope and not mainstream got caught up in the same shuffle as the ny nikkas...

Which is why trap has pretty much shut everything down across the board...

If the South would have did a better job of filtering out the b.s. music, you wouldn't have nikkas like scarface saying fukk a major

This is true. They wanted to dumb down skill and let hoes control what's hot and what's not. Dope southern rappers like Z Ro, Face, and others were left to rot cause they didn't want to cater to fickle minded people
 

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Everyone on the panel touched on some reasons why. Basically from my perspective, having worked at the label mentioned the most in the video...

1. Lack of evolution.

In many ways, NY rap basically boiled down to the same blueprint for well over a decade. You needed street records for the streets, and a poppy rap n bullshyt single for the masses. R&B chick on the hook. The rapper put very little effort in crafting an actual SONG. Often the tracks came as-is, the rapper just needed to add 3 verses and that was that. This birthed a generation of rappers who were melodically challenged and unprepared to deal with any shift in trends. I love Nas, he's my favorite rapper...but in many ways he utterly fails at crafting radio SONGS. The same applies to just about every NY rapper. 50 Cent figured out how to master creating SONGS, and he blew up. Post 50....NY rappers were still trying the rap n bullshyt route but that shyt was basically dead outside of a few outliers, like Empire State Of Mind.

You bring up 50 being able to master creating songs that generally followed the standards structures
of pop music songwriting (intro, chorus, verse, bridge).

Who mentored 50 early on with his music? Jam-Master Jay of Run-DMC. Run-DMC knew how to make music
for the 80s boombox ("Peter Piper"), for the clubs ("Sucker Macs"), for MTV ("Walk This Way"), for black radio
("Pause").

Who mentored Jay, Run and DMC musically? Larry Smith, a Queens veteran musician who produced them,
Whodini, the Fat Boys and Kurtis Blow. Larry gave all of them a strong funk, melodic base to work with.

By the early 1990s, NYC production became too sample reliant (RZA, Lord Finesse, Premier) and the musicianship impact (from Larry Smith, Full Force, Teddy Riley) on the music began to disappear.


3. Samples


Pretty obvious here but goes back to point 1. NY has been unable to craft music that doesn't rely on sampling, jacking r&b hooks, etc. When was the last time a major NY producer came up? Look at every other major region. They all have HUGE producers today or in the last few years. Metro, Mustard, Kanye, 40, Bo1da, DJ Dahi, etc etc etc. Where's NY's hit maker?

The south is making music that is not only smashing charts, but economically viable. Metro isn't losing publishing money to clear samples. Labels aren't worrying about clearing big samples that make or break songs. They're creating beats from scratch, or from some sounds provided by someone like Frank Dukes. It's an amazing set up...

NYC loves sampling because sampling is a studio extension of deejaying, which is an essential part or pillar
of core NYC-created Hip Hop culture (not to be confused with the explosion of the commercial rapper industry).

For the first 15 years of NYC Hip Hop culture, selecting that captivating beat to rock a party was more important than an emcee having 16 bars of lyrical magic.

When Nas rode the "Apache" break for "Made You Look,' it was like he came home from being away in a foreign land for a decade.

For NYC, maybe 30 years (1973-2003) of inventing and launching a dominant, music-based culture was enough?
 

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Gradual decline once the Tunnel closed and the music that fit that aesthetic that other clubs copied slowly but surely dissipated and people looked at strip clubs and clubs in Miami/Houston/Atlanta to copy next. That and the digital caused less people to buy as well which also doubled down aside from a top heavy small list of rappers. But I think radio followed what clubs were popping. Obviously you can argue the internet breaking down region also helped but I still argue even in the 90s and Source days other regions were getting exposure just not organized yet and not getting love in all radio markets.

Strip clubs ruined mainstream Hip Hop
 

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5. Papoose and Saigon

:laff::laff::laff:



South easily had better sounding music than the east AND STILL DOES.


Yup, I remember when Papoose and Saigon were supposed to blow up huge. They were pushed to the moon by NY radio, NY mixtape DJs, and other hip-hop media outlets. Them nikkas dropped the ball, big time.
 

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5. The south and west are playing chess, not checkers

Think about what's going on in LA, Atlanta, and Toronto right now. In LA, TDE has one of (if not the) best engineer in rap. They have an amazingly talented group of in-house producers. They're building studios and sucking up talent, including from outside Cali; when they signed Isiah Rashad, they also signed his producer friends from Tennessee, and they helped craft one of the biggest albums of the year (SZA's CTRL). They're BUILDING for the future.

Atlanta is full of great engineers and producers. Mike Will has an incredibly talented in-house production team that is crafting HIT records. Metro/808 Mafia/etc are doing the same thing. They're constantly signing new producers, constantly getting new guys some studio time, etc. They're building for the future.

OVO is signing producers like crazy. Also song writers (wink wink). 40 is one of the best engineers in rap and he's teaching the squad. They're building for the future.

There's not a single relevant producer in NY that I can think of. Premo, Pete Rock, Statik, etc etc have been remaking the same beats for years. The talent under them isn't breaking out either. There was a time when Alchemist was Premo's assistant, and of course Alch blew up. That's not happening in NY anymore. The scene is stagnant, which means the music is stagnant.
TDE is LA's heartbeat, its practically all they have. They haven't broken in a new artist in years, outside of Kendrick they've been absolutely dry on the charts hip-hop wise this year. The same can't be said for New York, they've broken in several new artists and artists old and new have had huge songs.

It's plenty of producers out here doing it in New York. Every act in New York has in-house producers this isn't unique to LA, Atlanta, or Toronto.

High Bridge The Label has DStackz and Ness, French has Harry Fraud and Lee on the Beats, Pro Era has Kirk Knight and Chuck Strangers, Vinylz is from Washington Heights and he's been one of the hottest mainstream producers of the 2010's he's worked with everyone from Fabolous, to Desiigner, to J. Cole, to Drake. Dave East works with guys like Buda & Grandz, Amadeus and V'Don, A$AP has their guys Pi'erre Bourne has been one of the hottest producers of the year with Magnolia and he's from Queens.
 
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