Lebron is easily the worst defender in my top 15

[The_Third_Man]

you stupid lying fakkit


the Bulls didn't even get Harper until the second threepeat




Bron peasants



you nikkas are completely immoral and surprise me at the depths of the lows you nikkas will sink too








either way hold this neg

when did I say the Bulls had Harper before the 2nd threepeat?

 

[I AM WE ARE]

That shyt jr doing wouldn't have flown with Kobe or Jordan. Pippen produced,kukoc, did his job,paxton(sp) etc whoever mj brought in, was for a reason, LeBron is too friendly and it's come back to hurt him. LeBron has played with all-star players but besides kyrie and wade(miami run)who would you put on a Jordan team?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

How do you make statements like that without any sort of proof?

Players Defense

He was top 10 in defensive win shares that year.

Defensive Win Shares Are Completely Broken

As the flagship one metric stat of the popular website basketball-reference, win shares are heavily cited in the basketball world. Unfortunately, the stat is far from perfect, and the defensive side of the stat is particularly egregious. Defense is notoriously tricky to quantify, and win shares attempts this using the usual bevy of defensive box score stats like blocks and steals, but they also include the team's defensive rating. This means that Zach Randolph gets the same credit for defense Tony Allen and Marc Gasol do, ignoring the few defensive box score stats. The influence of team defense is huge on this stat. What's even more problematic is that it's used in the time before steals and blocks, and when defensive rebounds weren't tracked separately from total rebounds.

The best example of how the metric fails is with Ryan Anderson. Traded from the Magic, who with Howard were a perennial defensive team, to the Hornets, still reeling from tanking and poor decisions, what changed was his scenery, not his defensive skill. Obviously, motivation is important with defense, as is coaching, but his defensive rating tracks closely to this team's rating. 2012 was his breakout season, yet his defensive rating plummeted from 19th in the league, or nearly a 95th percentile, to almost exactly average. The table below has the full details where percentile is based on players that season with at least 500 minutes.

When people use defensive win shares, or win shares in general, they may not fully understand how it's calculated. This is the clearest way to illustrate that.

Need another example? Omer Asik was traded from the defensively dominant Chicago Bulls to the Houston Rockets, where he has to adjust for the mistakes from James Harden and a roster of rookies. Few people watching Asik this year would say he has dropped off significantly in defensive intensity or skill. However, the previous year his rating was 2nd and before that, his rookie season, he was 3rd. This season? 68th. The Rockets are a league average defensive team because of him; when he's off the court they're terrifyingly bad, yet win shares only sees a player who's a great defensive rebounder with some blocked shots on a mediocre defensive team.

You can see this with players traded midseason too: Tayshaun Prince went from a defensive rating of 111 to 103, effectively going from roughly one of the worst defenders in the league, roughly 10th percentile, to significantly above average. (And no, it's not effort: win shares only sees box score stats, as his defensive rebounding leveled off but his steals and blocks went up, but the major culprit to the change was Memphis' suffocating defense compared to Detroit's mess.)

Need a quick way to discredit the stat to someone? In 2013, DeJuan Blair was 7th in the league in defensive rating.

II. What is a Win Share?
Bill James developed his system such that one win is equivalent to three Win Shares. My system deviates from James's system in three key ways:

1. In James's system, one win is equivalent to three Win Shares. In my system, one win is equivalent to one Win Share.
2. James made team Win Shares directly proportional to team wins. In his system, a baseball team that wins 80 games will have exactly 240 Win Shares, a baseball team that wins 90 games will have exactly 270 Win Shares, etc. In my system, a basketball team that wins 50 games will have about 50 Win Shares, give or take.
3. James did not allow for the possibility of negative Win Shares. In his system, the fewest number of Win Shares a player can have is zero. In my system, a player can have negative Win Shares. I justify this by thinking about it in the following way: a player with negative Win Shares was so poor that he essentially took away wins that his teammates had generated.

IV. Crediting Defensive Win Shares to Players
A. 1973-74 to present NBA

Crediting Defensive Win Shares to players is based on Dean Oliver's Defensive Rating. Defensive Rating is an estimate of the player's points allowed per 100 defensive possessions (please see Oliver's book for further details). Here is a description of the process (once again using LeBron James in 2008-09 as an example):

1. Calculate the Defensive Rating for each player. James's Defensive Rating in 2008-09 was 99.1.
2. Calculate marginal defense for each player. Marginal defense is equal to (player minutes played / team minutes played) * (team defensive possessions) * (1.08 * (league points per possession) - ((Defensive Rating) / 100)). For James this is (3054 / 19780) * 7341 * ((1.08 * 1.083) - (99.1 / 100)) = 202.5. Note that this formula may produce a negative result for some players.
3. Calculate marginal points per win. Marginal points per win reduces to 0.32 * (league points per game) * ((team pace) / (league pace)). For the 2008-09 Cavaliers this is 0.32 * 100.0 * (88.7 / 91.7) = 30.95.
4. Credit Defensive Win Shares to the players. Defensive Win Shares are credited using the following formula: (marginal defense) / (marginal points per win). James gets credit for 202.5 / 30.95 = 6.54 Defensive Win Shares.

In layman's terms, Jordan played on a great defensive team (top-3), averaged high minutes, averaged/ totaled high steals, and averaged/total high defensive rebounds for his team (#2). Metrics like defensive win shares don't accurately reflect one's defensive play/ability, they're based entirely on stats within the box score, and team defensive rating.

Kukoc was ranked 9th, Rodman 20th and Pippen 33th, respectively, in the league - does that mean Kukoc was better defensively than both those players that season?



To put it into perspective, why don't we take a look at this season since it's still fresh in our minds - Westbrook (yes, Russell Westbrook - the player who sacrifices defensive assignments to go hunting for defensive rebounds) was ranked #4 in defensive win shares this season.

@Champ_KW
@NoHateLeftBehind
@qashif

And anyone else who cosigned your posts can read this too.

 

[blackzeus]

And for the record: MJ's All-Defensive 1st Team selection that season was purely on reputation and nothing more. He wasn't even guarding the opposition's best perimeter threat at that age. Nobody should be using that in argument against LeBron.

I'm sick of you nikkaz revising history to fit your narratives. That's Jordan at 38 shutting down a prime Vince Carter in the second half. Really, you Bron Stans need to let it go. Lebron not even the best SF of all time. Let the man be great in his own right instead of making him something he really ain't

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Really, you Bron Stans need to let it go

Negged.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

JORDAN IN THE TOP 6 AT 34 YEARS OLD.

MEANWHILE HARPER IS 29TH.
PIPPEN IS 33RD.

REPUTATION SELECTION.



​

Why am I not surprised you left out Kukoc who's ranked #9.

I guess that must mean Kukoc was a better defender than Pippen and Rodman that season.

Why was Pippen selected for the All-Defensive 1st Team when Kukoc had higher win shares that season?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

MJ stans running in here with their straw man bullshyt and resorting to the same ole generic bu-bu-but he's the GOAT

 

[100Percent]

In layman's terms, Jordan played on a great defensive team (top-3), averaged high minutes, averaged/ totaled high steals, and averaged/total high defensive rebounds for his team (#2). Metrics like defensive win shares don't accurately reflect one's defensive play/ability, they're based entirely on stats within the box score, and team defensive rating.

Kukoc was ranked 9th, Rodman 20th and Pippen 30th, respectively, in the league - does that mean Kukoc was better defensively than both those players that season?



To put it into perspective, why don't we take a look at this season since it's still fresh in our minds - Westbrook (yes, Russell Westbrook - the player who sacrifices defensive assignments to go hunting for defensive rebounds) was ranked #4 in defensive win shares this season.

@Champ_KW
@NoHateLeftBehind
@qashif

And anyone else who cosigned your posts can read this too.

You've still offered no proof thay he didn't deserve the all defense selection other than basically "he just didn't"

I never said Def win shares was a perfect stat, I'm asking how you came to that conclusion when a lot of the advanced defensive stats say that he was an above average defender that year.

Wheres the proof that he didn't deserve it. As the article you copy/pasted said clearly, defense is difficult to quantify.

And before you mention it, playing with two other amazing defenders doesn't make you a bad defender. Its entirely possible to have three amazing defenders.

 

[qashif]

And for the record: MJ's All-Defensive 1st Team selection that season was purely on reputation and nothing more. He wasn't even guarding the opposition's best perimeter threat at that age. Nobody should be using that in argument against LeBron.

are you too stupid not to realize the contradiction here?

 

[McPiff]

MY FIRST PLAYOFFS WAS WHEN HE WENT CRAZY ON THE BLAZERS

SO SINCE I SAW TRU GOAT shyt, NOT GONNA CROWN SCRUBS WIT NO CLUTCH GENE AS THE NEW GOAT LIKE VIRGINS LIKE @McPiff AND JILL SCOTT

MUST SUCK HAVING A LOSER AS YOUR GOAT WHO DISAPPOINTS YOU YEAR AFTER YEAR

Wtf is your fakkit ass talking about ?

Magic is my goat first and foremost.

Second you quoted a post from the woat jordan stan on here and dude is clearly biased.

Third stop acting all emotional and stop repping the heat, you're an embarrassment.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

are you too stupid not to realize the contradiction here?

And what contradiction might that be? This should be interesting.

You've still offered no proof thay he didn't deserve the all defense selection other than basically "he just didn't"

I never said Def win shares was a perfect stat, I'm asking how you came to that conclusion when a lot of the advanced defensive stats say that he was an above average defender that year.

Wheres the proof that he didn't deserve it. As the article you copy/pasted said clearly, defense is difficult to quantify.

And before you mention it, playing with two other amazing defenders doesn't make you a bad defender. Its entirely possible to have three amazing defenders.

What proof would you like me to provide, barring every one of his 82 games that season?

 

[100Percent]

And what contradiction might that be? This should be interesting.



What proof would you like me to provide, barring every one of his 82 games that season?

You tell me, you're the one who made that claim that it was all on rep and as you put it "nothing more"

The burden of proof is on you. I see his all defense selection, his defensive rating, win shares, you're telling me its bullshyt. I want proof.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

You tell me, you're the one who made that claim that it was all on rep and as you put it "nothing more"

The burden of proof is on you. I see his all defense selection, his defensive rating, win shares, you're telling me its bullshyt. I want proof.

Your answer was in the question.

Because no evidence that I provide barring a complete, detailed breakdown of every single one of his 82 games on defense is going to change your mind. If one actually watched him play that season (and went over the tape), would acknowledge that he was no longer capable of dealing with heavy defensive reps at that stage of his career for an entire season, which is why all the role players picked up the slack on that end (Phil and Tex both spoke about this in length); allowing him to pace himself during the season (they needed his efforts on the offensive end), in preparation for the playoffs.

It was a common theme throughout that second three-peat.

 

[Noah]

Larry Bird after about 1985 or '86 wasn't as good on defense as he was earlier, same with Magic, especially once Showtime started to slow down around '89 or so. Neither were ever particularly great man-to-man defenders but had the IQ and anticipation to make a play. Both at their best pale in comparison to what LeBron was able to do at his best on that end and I'd honestly still take these past couple years of LeBron's defense over what they could contribute in their later years. They are top-15, are they not?

I'd never expect any perimeter player to be able to put up the offensive production of a Jordan/Magic/LeBron and be the best perimeter defender on the team once they hit 30+ years old. It's a pretty consistent pattern among great players; the effort becomes more sporadic.

 

[100Percent]

Your answer was in the question.

Because no evidence that I provide barring a complete, detailed breakdown of every single one of his 82 games on defense is going to change your mind.

Gimme your detailed breakdown for 1 game.