Lebron is easily the worst defender in my top 15

[Brozay]

And for the record: MJ's All-Defensive 1st Team selection that season was purely on reputation and nothing more. He wasn't even guarding the opposition's best perimeter threat at that age. Nobody should be using that in argument against LeBron.

why isnt Lebron getting reputation selections? he hasnt been on an all defensive team since 2013-2014

 

[JackRoss]

Why does it feel like I'm being treated like a LeBron stan in this thread?

Bruh this thread is like some Twillight Zone shyt

 

[CHICAGO]

How do you make statements like that without any sort of proof?

Players Defense

He was top 10 in defensive win shares that year.

JORDAN IN THE TOP 6 AT 34 YEARS OLD.

MEANWHILE HARPER IS 29TH.
PIPPEN IS 33RD.

REPUTATION SELECTION.



​

 

[Bilz]

why isnt Lebron getting reputation selections? he hasnt been on an all defensive team since 2013-2014

The media takes the voting a lot more seriously than coaches did.

 

[Roland Coltrane]

Have a mythical legacy from clamping up Hersey Hawkins, Kendall Gill, and at least 12 cacs a year brehs

I think Jordan is the greatest perimeter defender of all-time. Many other players are also in the discussion - the main ones being Scottie Pippen, Gary Payton, and Dennis Rodman, but I think Jordan was superior to all of them as a perimeter defender.

Before we begin, it should be understood that stats such as DBPM, Drtg, and Dwin shares are not accurate for measuring individual defense. There are far more accurate ways to measure individual defense, which will be explored in this article especially with regards to Jordan's Wizard years before his knee injury.


In the playoffs, Charlie Ward is top 15 in Drtg over Kevin Garnett, and Greg Ostertag and Anderson Varejao are top 25 ahead of Dwight Howard, Kahwi Leonard, Dennis Rodman, Hakeem, Tony Allen, Mutombo, and more. DPBM is another irrelevant stat. In the playoffs, according to DBPM, Marcus Camby and Greg Ostertag are top 3 defenders of all time over Hakeem, David Robinson, Mutombo, Dwight Howard, Garnett, Duncan and many more players that they are not close to defensively.
As more proof of how useless these stats are for evaluating defense, Ron Artest never was top 10 in DBPM or Drtg in any of his seasons in the league, and only once was he top 10 in Dwin shares at 7th in 2003/04 during his DPOY season. This is despite the fact that Ron Artest is considered arguably the best perimeter defender of his era. Clearly these stats are not to be trusted at all when it comes to evaluating defense, since apparently Ron Artest was never a top 10 defender in the league according to these stats, with the exception of Dwin shares in 2003/04.

Anyways, here are the reasons why Jordan has a rock solid case as the best perimeter defender of all-time

1. Playoff Defense and 1-1 Matchups

There probably is not another perimeter player who took on as many tough matchups in the playoffs as Jordan did. There is a misconception that Pippen was the guy who always guarded the other team's best player in the playoffs, because of the famous story when Pippen switched on Magic in Game 2 of the Finals and did a great job. But in the very next game, Game 3 of the 1991 Finals, Pippen fouled out at the end of the 4th quarter and after Magic had lit up Jordan + Pippen through 4 quarters, Jordan shut down Magic to 0-0-0 with 1 turnover in the OT.

In fact, Jordan had an elite defensive performance in every single one of his NBA Finals, including that Game 3 against Magic.

1992 Finals - Drexler, a top 5 SG of all-time, had 25 ppg on a poor 40.7% FG in the 1992 Finals after 25 ppg on 47% in the regular season, and most of his points came in transition or on other defenders when Jordan was not guarding him. Jordan completely locked him down. Jordan also shut down Terry Porter, who averaged 21.6 PPG with 52% FG and 47% 3PT in the 1992 Playoffs. He is the only player to average at least 15 PPG on 50% FG and 45% 3PT in an NBA Finals run (min. 1.5 3PA/game).

1993 Finals, Game 3 - Kevin Johnson scored 23 points before Jordan guarded him with 7 minutes left in the 4th quarter. KJ had 2 points the rest of the game including the 3 overtimes. Kevin Johnson is one of 3 players in history (Oscar + Isiah) to average 20-10 for 3 straight years, and before running into Gary Payton in the 1993 WCF, KJ averaged 19.6 ppg and 9.4 apg on 53% in the 1993 Playoffs which was just short of his 20-10 mark.



Contrary to popular belief, Jordan would
taken on the tougher playoff matchups
than Pippen and did a better job
the majority of the time
1996 Finals - With Ron Harper's knee injury limiting him to 1 minute in both Games 3 and 5, Jordan shut down Gary Payton in both Game 3 and Game 5. Payton had averaged 22-5-7-2 on 50% through 3 rounds in the 1996 Playoffs, while sweeping the 2x defending champion Rockets and beating Stockton/Malone's Jazz.

1997 and 1998 Finals - Jordan did not guard Stockton for long periods of time, as this was past his defensive peak. Jordan's off-ball was huge, however, including the Flu game in which all 3 of Jordan's steals came off of Stockton's passes.

His on-ball on Stockton was also good the few times when he did guard Stockton, and his off-ball and help defense on Karl Malone was also key, including the championship winning steal and shot in Game 6 of the 1998 Finals

And these are only the examples of Jordan's defensive performances in the NBA Finals. Before the Bulls title years, Jordan also repeatedly shut downIsiah Thomas who shot 39 - 41% in all 4 playoff series against the Bulls (1988, 1989, 1990, 1991). Jordan also played great defense on former 2x scoring champ Adrian Dantley in the 1988 ECSF, who averaged 20 ppg on 51% in 31 mpg for the 87/88 season.

In the 1996 ECF, Pippen spent more time guarding Penny than Jordan did, but when Jordan did guard Penny, he did a better job. Penny only scored 1 total point with Jordan guarding him in the entire 1996 ECF.

Jordan also locked down these guys when he guarded them

• Tim Hardaway (1996 1st Rd) - averaged 17-10 on 43% in 28 games with the 1996 Heat, and 25-10 on 46% for his playoff career prior to that series.
• Rod Strickland (1997 1st Rd) - Strickland was an underrated player who averaged 17-19 ppg and 8-10 apg at his best, and even led the league in assists in 97/98.
• Steve Smith (1997 ECSF) - averaged 20 ppg on 43% in 96/97

And in 1998, with the season on the line against Indiana in Game 7 of the 98 ECF, Jordan was the one who had to guard Reggie Miller in the 4th quarter. Reggie had 22 points on 7/12 (58%) FG through 3 quarters, then Jordan switched on him in the 4th and Reggie had 0 points and was only able to attempt 1 shot.

Here is an incomplete list of notable offensive matchups Jordan guarded in the playoffs


Adrian Dantley - 1988
Isiah Thomas - 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991
Charles Barkley - 1990 (brief stretches)
Magic Johnson - 1991
James Worthy - 1991 (brief stretches)
Clyde Drexler - 1992
Terry Porter - 1992
Kevin Johnson - 1993
Tim Hardaway - 1996
Penny Hardaway - 1996
Gary Payton - 1996
Rod Strickland - 1997
Steve Smith - 1997
Reggie Miller - 1998
John Stockton - 1997, 1998 (brief stretches)

In every NBA Finals, Jordan guarded a top 5 or top 10 all-time PG or SG
- Magic Johnson
- Clyde Drexler
- Kevin Johnson
- Gary Payton
- John Stockton

 

[McPiff]

@Gil Scott-Heroin finally witnessing what lebron stans do, with unrationnal posters coming from all angles spewing out shyt that has nothing to do with the matter at hand.

What a time to be alive.

 

[FLORIDA BOI]

No lies said by OP.

LeBron has been downright embarrassing on defense this year. Its gotten to the point that I think there's a media conspiracy out there to protect him cause its laughable how Skip is the only one mentioning this.

LeBron is killing his team every night because he plays ZERO defense and nobody is saying anything about it.

LeBron a beast but I ain't gone lie this nikka b bullshytin on defense . if he gotta run outta the lane and rotate on somebody he just stands there . and he ain't contesting these young boys in the lane he done gave up so many dunks without even trying to guard the rim.

 

[Truefan31]

And I'm not willing to give Bron the "mileage" excuse either. MJ was the oldest player in the top 10 and you had to go 90 players deep before you found another perimeter player older than him on that list. I'm thoroughly convinced these dudes did not watch MJ play.

They don't get it....like they just can't believe there's someone better than the media beloved LeLoss.....They see the numbers like the 10 scoring titles, the numerous all defensive team selections, the 2 threepeats, 6 FMVPs, highest playoff and finals ppg, averaging over 35ppg while being the DPOY, 3x steals leader, back to back 100+block seasons, they think it's some kind of made up shyt.

But I, along with other older people watched MJ from the beginning of his career (even at UNC too). He was that good. The numbers, as unbelievable as they are, don't do him justice. He was basically the perfect basketball player, and the mental obsession will to win made him the GOAT.

Now they're somehow overrating MJ's defense saying he didn't guard the other teams best player when we know it's a lie. His mental makeup wouldn't allow him to just not try on defense and/or back down from a challenge. Meanwhile LeLoss is being compared to MJ, with no threepeats, a losing Finals record, and a clear lack of will to play defense. shyt's crazy.

Yes brehs, MJ was that good. Believe it, cuz it's true. MJ=GOAT

 

[The_Third_Man]

NO THE fukk HE WASNT





​

when the bulls played the Heat in the playoffs, Harper guarded Tim Hardway. Jordan guarded Vashon Leonard.
when the bulls played the Hawks, Harper guarded Blaylock. Jordan guarded Corbin.
when the bulls played the Knicks, Harper guarded Starks
when the bulls played the Sonics, Harper guarded Payton
when the bulls played the Sixers, Harper guarded AI

to name few

 

[CEITEDMOFO]

They don't get it....like they just can't believe there's someone better than the media beloved LeLoss.....They see the numbers like the 10 scoring titles, the numerous all defensive team selections, the 2 threepeats, 6 FMVPs, highest playoff and finals ppg, averaging over 35ppg while being the DPOY, 3x steals leader, back to back 100+block seasons, they think it's some kind of made up shyt.

But I, along with other older people watched MJ from the beginning of his career (even at UNC too). He was that good. The numbers, as unbelievable as they are, don't do him justice. He was basically the perfect basketball player, and the mental obsession will to win made him the GOAT.

Now they're somehow overrating MJ's defense saying he didn't guard the other teams best player when we know it's a lie. His mental makeup wouldn't allow him to just not try on defense and/or back down from a challenge. Meanwhile LeLoss is being compared to MJ, with no threepeats, a losing Finals record, and a clear lack of will to play defense. shyt's crazy.

Yes brehs, MJ was that good. Believe it, cuz it's true. MJ=GOAT

MY FIRST PLAYOFFS WAS WHEN HE WENT CRAZY ON THE BLAZERS

SO SINCE I SAW TRU GOAT shyt, NOT GONNA CROWN SCRUBS WIT NO CLUTCH GENE AS THE NEW GOAT LIKE VIRGINS LIKE @McPiff AND JILL SCOTT

MUST SUCK HAVING A LOSER AS YOUR GOAT WHO DISAPPOINTS YOU YEAR AFTER YEAR

 

[Roland Coltrane]

when the bulls played the Heat in the playoffs, Harper guarded Tim Hardway. Jordan guarded Vashon Leonard.
when the bulls played the Hawks, Harper guarded Blaylock. Jordan guarded Corbin.
when the bulls played the Knicks, Harper guarded Starks
when the bulls played the Sonics, Harper guarded Payton
when the bulls played the Sixers, Harper guarded AI

to name few

you stupid lying fakkit


the Bulls didn't even get Harper until the second threepeat




Bron peasants



you nikkas are completely immoral and surprise me at the depths of the lows you nikkas will sink too








either way hold this neg

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

I'm convinced you didn't watch MJ play

See, that's the difference - I actually watched him play, and I've watched more tape, more recently; I'm not going on this exaggerated state of his game like you are.

 

[Roland Coltrane]

See, that's the difference - I actually watched him play, and I've watched more tape, more recently; I'm not going on this exaggerated state of his game like you are.

breh....I agree with you on most things. but you're the analytics and advanced numbers guy and nikkas hit u with receipts and instead of at least acknowledging that you *might* be wrong you're in here juelzing. you said MJ made All Defense off of reputation and dude showed you via the SAME type of metrics YOU swear by that he was a good defender and you just Cuban b'd the whole shyt.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

why isnt Lebron getting reputation selections? he hasnt been on an all defensive team since 2013-2014

As it's already been mentioned, prior to that season the coaches would pick the selections, and they wouldn't take that shyt too seriously. Plus, LeBron's been on average to poor defensive teams since then.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

breh....I agree with you on most things. but you're the analytics and advanced numbers guy and nikkas hit u with receipts and instead of at least acknowledging that you *might* be wrong you're in here juelzing.

I'm in here "juelzing"? How do you figure that when I had only replied to one post when you quoted me? Can you at least wait for me to reply to all the shyt; I logged into triple-digit alerts, a good portion of them being quotes.

you said MJ made All Defense off of reputation and dude showed you via the SAME type of metrics YOU swear by that he was a good defender and you just Cuban b'd the whole shyt.

Like I said above, WAIT, and give me a chance to reply to all the shyt in here.

First off, I do not SWEAR by defensive win shares, in fact, I'll quote myself to let you know what I think of them:

Defensive win shares are a heavily flawed stat. I wouldn't pay much attention to them. In saying that, his defense ain't been shyt lately.

Those aren't metrics (not in the direct sense like DRTG, DRPM, DWS are) - those measure what the individual did. Now obviously like I said in that post, there needs to be context applied - as you do with all stats. But they're certainly a more accurate reading than using shyt like defensive rating or defensive win shares that are heavily influenced directly by teammates on court.