Lets discuss problems with the "resurrection" story

[tmonster]

All I'm saying is, based purely on the data, something very odd happened to Jesus. We know the tomb was empty and there was only one explanation offered by his enemies which was rebutted in Matthew:

Matthew 28 (KJV)​

11 Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.
12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,
13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.
14 And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.
15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

We know this testimony is early because of the following factors:​

1. None of the NT text describes the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem in 70 CE.
2. None of the NT text describes the 3-year siege prior to the destruction of the Temple.
3. Paul was executed in 64 CE in Rome, Peter followed in 65 CE. Neither death is mentioned in Luke nor Acts despite both Apostles playing prominent roles.
4. Luke said nothing about the death of James (the brother of Jesus) who was executed in Jerusalem in 62 CE. He was described in Acts 15 as the leader of the Jerusalem Church.
5. Luke was written before Acts as indicated by Acts' introduction which refers to 'The first account I composed,...'
6. Paul quoted Luke.
7. Paul echoed the claims of Gospel writers and his writings began circulating about 50 CE.
8. Galatians, written by Paul, describes his meetings with James and Peter 14 years prior to it's writing. Approximately 40-45 CE.
9. Luke quoted Mark (and Matthew) repeatedly.
10. Mark's report is primarily to gather/compile evidence, not reconstruct a timeline of events.

All these factors make it reasonable to believe that the Gospels are early eye-witness testimonies to the events in Jesus' immediate vicinity, well-known within a few years of his execution, and authoritative prior to Paul's 'conversion'.

Of course, this is all circumstantial evidence, but purely based on existing corroborative documents from various pagan, Jewish, Biblical and extra-Biblical sources.
​

I want to get this straight
something extraordinary was claimed and inconsistent accounts

There are supposed to be inconsistencies with eyewitness accounts.
​

is what I must use to support it?
I prefer extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims, that seems fair

My claim is that when people die they die
this is an ordinary claim well supported by ordinary evidence
those who claim otherwise need more than inconsistent scriptures

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

which means what? I should consider that this one time at band camp a guy died for three days and then came back to life?

Consider what the most reasonable explanation is using the evidence.​

​

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

I want to get this straight
something extraordinary was claimed and inconsistent accounts

is what I must use to support it?
I prefer extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims, that seems fair

The only claims are that the accounts are early and by eyewitnesses.​

My claim is that when people die they die
this is an ordinary claim well supported by ordinary evidence
those who claim otherwise need more than inconsistent scriptures

Sometimes, they come back........

Dead Mississippi man begins breathing in embalming room, coroner says - CNN.com
Ohio Man Declared Dead Comes Back to Life - ABC News

.....but that is not the point. Inconsistencies in reports from multiple witnesses is normal. If they were all exactly the same, that would mean they had time to 'create' a story which would make all their testimony suspect.​

 

[tmonster]

There are supposed to be inconsistencies with eyewitness accounts.
​

which is unreliable by your own admission

 

[tmonster]

The only claims are that the accounts are early and by eyewitnesses.​

Sometimes, they come back........

Dead Mississippi man begins breathing in embalming room, coroner says - CNN.com
Ohio Man Declared Dead Comes Back to Life - ABC News

.....but that is not the point. Inconsistencies in reports from multiple witnesses is normal. If they were all exactly the same, that would mean they had time to 'create' a story which would make all their testimony suspect.​

glad you recognize that
these people are erroneously declared dead
inconsistencies obviate the testimony when they propose the outlandish
not only that it all depends on what details are inconsistent in the eyewitness report
some types of inconsistencies point to confabulation rather than the inverse and vice versa, all depending on the type of inconsistency or consistency

 

[tmonster]

The only claims are that the accounts are early and by eyewitnesses.​

long as you realize you ain't got nuffin to support supernaturally caused resurrection

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

which is unreliable by your own admission

I said and inferred nothing about reliability.​

glad you recognize that
these people are erroneously declared dead
inconsistencies obviate the testimony when they propose the outlandish
not only that it all depends on what details are inconsistent in the eyewitness report
some types of inconsistencies point to confabulation rather than the inverse and vice versa, all depending on the type of inconsistency or consistency

There is nothing outlandish about someone being put to death and no one was 'erroneously' declared dead if their deaths are attested to in multiple sources.

The details of the inconsistencies are minor and expected of eyewitness testimonies.
​

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

long as you realize you ain't got nuffin to support supernaturally caused resurrection

I have no idea what you mean by either of those terms and they don't matter.

One can only look at the evidence and determine what is the most reasonable explanation.

He was killed, entombed, then, the tomb was empty.​

 

[tmonster]

I said and inferred nothing about reliability.​

​

the "witness stories" are inconsistent
that basically is enough to doubt them and considering what they are trying to prove, the case is closed

There is nothing outlandish about someone being put to death​

lol, yeah you left some stuff out
there is something outlandish about them being killed and dead for three days and then waking up and then attributing that to the will of an intercessory invisible being and that being had sent him to die and that being is him
that is by Christian dogma the definition of RESURRECTION

and no one was 'erroneously' declared dead if their deaths are attested to in multiple sources.

that is patently false, those mistakes are made by medical TEAMS multiple times since the invention of modern medicine and the establishment of the declaration of death protocols

The details of the inconsistencies are minor and expected of eyewitness testimonies.

ok they are minor what believers care about proving is not proven by the accounts or the inconsistencies so...

 

[tmonster]

He was killed, entombed, then, the tomb was empty.​

ok, if one can believe anything in those books, then sure
I ain't putting my money on it

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

the "witness stories" are inconsistent
that basically is enough to doubt them and considering what they are trying to prove, the case is closed

Inconsistency doesn't void witness testimony.
​

lol, yeah you left some stuff out
there is something outlandish about them being killed and dead for three days and then waking up and then attributing that to the will of an intercessory invisible being and that being had sent him to die and that being is him
that is by Christian dogma the definition of RESURRECTION

None of that is what I claimed so, is immaterial.

​

that is patently false, those mistakes are made by medical TEAMS multiple times since the invention of modern medicine and the establishment of the declaration of death protocols

That's patently true and verifiable in multiple cases throughout the globe.​

ok they are minor what believers care about proving is not proven by the accounts or the inconsistencies so...

What is provable with available evidence is that Jesus was killed, entombed, and his tomb was empty sometime later. These events were reported by early eyewitnesses.​

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

ok, if one can believe anything in those books, then sure
I ain't putting my money on it

Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

~Cornelius Tacitus, Annals, Book VX, Ch. 44

Wonder what he meant by 'mischievous superstition'?​

 

[tmonster]

Inconsistency doesn't void witness testimony.
​

​

None of that is what I claimed so, is immaterial.

​

​

That's patently true and verifiable in multiple cases throughout the globe.​

What is provable with available evidence is that Jesus was killed, entombed, and his tomb was empty sometime later. These events were reported by early eyewitnesses.​

gosh you are literally wrong on every count

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

gosh you are literally wrong on every count

Gosh, you have no evidence to substantiate your statement......

Smileys are neither replacements for arguments nor evidence.

Also, since Matthew is an early eyewitness testimony, someone needs to explain Jesus' prediction of the Temple's destruction 30+ years before it happened.........

Matthew 24(NKJV)

1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”



​

 

[tmonster]

Gosh, you have no evidence to substantiate your statement......

Smileys are neither replacements for arguments nor evidence.

Also, since Matthew is an early eyewitness testimony, someone needs to explain Jesus' prediction of the Temple's destruction 30+ years before it happened.........

Matthew 24(NKJV)

1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”



​

as if evidence mattered to you we would not be here i it did