Let's settle this, did Steee Nash deserve one, both, or neither MVP award? (poll)

[Professor Emeritus]

Kobe averaged 27.6/6.0/5.9/1.3/0.8 in 2004-05

I agree Kobe wasn't the MVP that year. Missed too may games, but there is no need to make up stats.

Ah, you're right, my bad, I was looking at the stat lines wrong and put his 2004 stats by mistake. Forgot that he missed 16-17 games both years, not just 2005.

Still, 43% shooting and 4 turnovers/game, missing 16 games, on a 34-48 team. The only reason his 2005 stats look slightly better than his 2004 stats is because he played 41 minutes/game and took more shots.

 

[Jplaya2023]

There's been other guys who could claim that. Duncan, Magic, Walton, Russell come to mind first.





Don't know much bball history?

MVP 1958 Russell: 16.6ppg
MVP 1961 Russell: 16.9ppg
MVP 1962 Russell: 18.9ppg
MVP 1963 Russell: 16.8ppg
MVP 1965 Russell: 14.1ppg
MVP 1969 Unseld: 13.8ppg
MVP 1978 Walton: 18.9ppg

And that was during an era with way more shots and tons of scoring. Walt had his 50ppg and 100-point games in that era, and guys still winning MVPs for scoring in the teens.

The right guy can certainly deserve MVP with 15ppg. The bigger issue for me is that someone won MVP while being so worthless on defense.

You asked for this. Get em @mitter

 

[mitter]

There's been other guys who could claim that. Duncan, Magic, Walton, Russell come to mind first.





Don't know much bball history?

MVP 1958 Russell: 16.6ppg
MVP 1961 Russell: 16.9ppg
MVP 1962 Russell: 18.9ppg
MVP 1963 Russell: 16.8ppg
MVP 1965 Russell: 14.1ppg
MVP 1969 Unseld: 13.8ppg
MVP 1978 Walton: 18.9ppg

And that was during an era with way more shots and tons of scoring. Walt had his 50ppg and 100-point games in that era, and guys still winning MVPs for scoring in the teens.

The right guy can certainly deserve MVP with 15ppg. The bigger issue for me is that someone won MVP while being so worthless on defense.

You addressed this in your last sentence. Yes, 15 ppg is ridiculous for an MVP if his value is entirely on offense!

All those guys listed were great defenders and/or dominant rebounders in addition to what they contributed on offense. Nash, on the other hand, was a complete liability on defense.

 

[Draje]

You addressed this in your last sentence. Yes, 15 ppg is ridiculous for an MVP if his value is entirely on offense!

All those guys listed were great defenders and/or dominant rebounders in addition to what they contributed on offense. Nash, on the other hand, was a complete liability on defense.

Nash had an ELITE impact on offense, was averaging 11+ AST and like 3 while being on the cusp of GOAT-tier when it comes to playmaking.

Nash has always been an elite scorer but, like CP3, he prefers setting up his teammates which is why his USG rate is low compared to most stars.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Exactly Draje.

Offensive impact isn't on the 15ppg alone. Depending on the player and the system, 15 and 12 can be as large or greater an offensive impact as 25 and 5 - especially since the 15 and 12 guy is probably doing a lot of ballhanding and distribution that drives the offense without showing up on the stat sheet. The issue for Nash is the defensive side of the ball, not the offensive. There are tons of 20ppg scorers over the years that didn't have remotely the offensive impact that Nash did that season.

The issue is giving guys MVP when they're only doing elite work on one end of the court, not giving guys MVP when they're not exclusively scorers.

 

[SwagKingKong]

You addressed this in your last sentence. Yes, 15 ppg is ridiculous for an MVP if his value is entirely on offense!

All those guys listed were great defenders and/or dominant rebounders in addition to what they contributed on offense. Nash, on the other hand, was a complete liability on defense.

What? Scoring doesn't equal offensive value. Nash has a case for one of the most impactful offensive players of ALL-TIME, stop staring yourself blind at scoring average. His offensive impact is arguably on GOAT level.

Here's a list of the top offenses in league history, including playoffs.

1 2007 Phoenix Suns 116 3.25
2 2005 Phoenix Suns 116.1 2.92
3 1971 Milwaukee Bucks 108.2 2.72
4 2010 Phoenix Suns 116.4 2.59
5 1982 Denver Nuggets 113.4 2.56
6 2004 Dallas Mavericks 110.8 2.49
7 1975 Houston Rockets 104.1 2.4
8 1987 Los Angeles Lakers 115.9 2.34
9 2004 Sacramento Kings 110.3 2.33
10 2006 Phoenix Suns 113.1 2.31
11 2009 Phoenix Suns 114.4 2.13
12 1988 Boston Celtics 114.7 2.12
13 1998 Seattle Supersonics 113.2 2.07
14 1996 Chicago Bulls 116.3 2.02
15 1985 Los Angeles Lakers 114.6 2.01
16 1978 San Antonio Spurs 106.8 2
17 1995 Seattle Supersonics 116 2
18 2004 Seattle Supersonics 109.3 1.99
19 2002 Dallas Mavericks 110.4 1.98
20 1997 Seattle Supersonics 114.4 1.94

That's insane. Nash has lead 7(!) of the top 20 offenses in LEAGUE HISTORY.

He has also lead the top 2 offenses relative to opponents defensive rating and 5 of the top 20..

From 2002 to 2010, his teams were #1 in offense, every single year.

 

[Godless Socialist CEO]

John Wall

Prime Dwight Howard use to decimate teams defensively. He might be one of the best defensive players ever during those years in Orlando and he should've won the MVP over Rose that year imo

 

[meth68]

nikka what, Westbrook has made the finals lmao

Wasnt talking about that, when people say mvp and oh his team got bounced early means shyt to me. Westbrook if squeaks into the playoffs with that team, he deserves MVP talks even if gets bounced early

 

[superunknown23]

Funny how Kobe stans were mocking Kevin Love for putting up "empty stats" in Minnesota, but now they're clamoring up for their boy here.
What's up with 2005 anyway? Shaq had a case but Kobe was NEVER in the discussion (I doubt he was even in the top 5)... Some serious revisionism here
You just don't win MVPs on low seeds or non-playoff teams, period. If that wasn't the case, MJ would've won 12 of them, instead of 5.

 

[GoddamnyamanProf]

People who said neither are clueless.

or just laker fans

same thing

 

[Mantis Toboggan M.D.]

same thing

Yep. My brother tried to argue kobe for 2013 and 2012 mvp

 

[Bilz]

Funny how Kobe stans were mocking Kevin Love for putting up "empty stats" in Minnesota, but now they're clamoring up for their boy here.
What's up with 2005 anyway? Shaq had a case but Kobe was NEVER in the discussion (I doubt he was even in the top 5)... Some serious revisionism here
You just don't win MVPs on low seeds or non-playoff teams, period. If that wasn't the case, MJ would've won 12 of them, instead of 5.

It's because they're dumb as fukk and have no clue what they're talking about. Kobe at least has an argument in 2006 (even though he finished 4th and wouldn't have won even if you take Nash out of the equation) but in 2005, he wasnt listed on a single ballot. He had 0 votes. Its that it has been 10 years and these motherfukkers still can't navigate the Internet.

 

[Cᵣₐₛₕ&ₜₕₑCₒᵤₚ]

Kobe should have won one of Nash's MVP's and CP3 should have won in 07-08 :oxy:


He was robbed ​

 

[Mantis Toboggan M.D.]

Kobe should have won one of Nash's MVP's and CP3 should have won in 07-08 :oxy:


He was robbed ​

Going 43-39 and quitting in game 7 after blowing a 3-1 lead (only 8 teams in NBA history have done that) is not worthy of the leagues most valuable player award. Wade and Nowitzki make strong arguments in 2006 and Shaq makes a great argument along with Duncan in 2005 but kobe did not deserve it that year. LeBron and Chris Paul in 2008 both made convincing arguments for the award too for that matter.

 

[mitter]

What? Scoring doesn't equal offensive value. Nash has a case for one of the most impactful offensive players of ALL-TIME, stop staring yourself blind at scoring average. His offensive impact is arguably on GOAT level.

Here's a list of the top offenses in league history, including playoffs.

1 2007 Phoenix Suns 116 3.25
2 2005 Phoenix Suns 116.1 2.92
3 1971 Milwaukee Bucks 108.2 2.72
4 2010 Phoenix Suns 116.4 2.59
5 1982 Denver Nuggets 113.4 2.56
6 2004 Dallas Mavericks 110.8 2.49
7 1975 Houston Rockets 104.1 2.4
8 1987 Los Angeles Lakers 115.9 2.34
9 2004 Sacramento Kings 110.3 2.33
10 2006 Phoenix Suns 113.1 2.31
11 2009 Phoenix Suns 114.4 2.13
12 1988 Boston Celtics 114.7 2.12
13 1998 Seattle Supersonics 113.2 2.07
14 1996 Chicago Bulls 116.3 2.02
15 1985 Los Angeles Lakers 114.6 2.01
16 1978 San Antonio Spurs 106.8 2
17 1995 Seattle Supersonics 116 2
18 2004 Seattle Supersonics 109.3 1.99
19 2002 Dallas Mavericks 110.4 1.98
20 1997 Seattle Supersonics 114.4 1.94

That's insane. Nash has lead 7(!) of the top 20 offenses in LEAGUE HISTORY.

He has also lead the top 2 offenses relative to opponents defensive rating and 5 of the top 20..

From 2002 to 2010, his teams were #1 in offense, every single year.

There is simply no precedent for a guy getting MVP when his value is entirely on the offensive side and he averages only 15 ppg. Yes, I know he contributed a lot with his assists and floor generalship. But other guys who did that still had to score a lot more to get MVPs.

For example, Magic Johnson got MVPs during the 3 seasons with his highest ppg output: 23.9, 22.5, 22.3. (And lets not forget that Magic, although no defensive stopper, was not nearly the liability on defense that Nash was. Also, Magic was a big-time rebounder from the backcourt.) Magic did not win MVP when he scored in the high teens (and even then, he never scored as little as 15 ppg).

John Stockon never won an MVP, and neither did Jason Kidd (both were far superior on the defensive end than Nash as well). Isiah Thomas never won an MVP, but got the most consideration during his highest scoring seasons. Chris Paul got the most consideration during his highest scoring seasons.