Older thread '20 NYK Off-season Thread

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dave

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So I was wondering, Brett brown from the 76ers has been with them since like 2013 and they endured 4 straight losing seasons and tanked. They stuck with him and showed continuity and eventually found picks that thrived. hes improved as a coach and the sixers have now become a playoff team and one of the favorites to go to the finals. Do you think our fanbase or front office has the patience to go through this? 4 coaches since brett brown has been in philly shows no continuity on our part. I mean the media doesn’t make it any better but I think we should def continue to build through the draft(find a point guard) Trade the veterans for picks when we can and find the right pieces. DEVELOP YOUR PICKS!!! That means Mitch, RJ, Knox, Frank, trier, Dotson, brazdeikis should all get precedence!

100% but NYC ≠ Philly. patience runs thin in our city.
 

Kitsch

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So I was wondering, Brett brown from the 76ers has been with them since like 2013 and they endured 4 straight losing seasons and tanked. They stuck with him and showed continuity and eventually found picks that thrived. hes improved as a coach and the sixers have now become a playoff team and one of the favorites to go to the finals. Do you think our fanbase or front office has the patience to go through this? 4 coaches since brett brown has been in philly shows no continuity on our part. I mean the media doesn’t make it any better but I think we should def continue to build through the draft(find a point guard) Trade the veterans for picks when we can and find the right pieces. DEVELOP YOUR PICKS!!! That means Mitch, RJ, Knox, Frank, trier, Dotson, brazdeikis should all get precedence!
fukk it, bring in Hinkie.
 

dave

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One can only hope that if Fiz gets fired Dolan'll run out of rope for Mills and give him the :camby:. Good thing the media sees through the bullshyt with the scapegoating fukkery Pills is trynna pull :unimpressed:.

co-sign. at this point, if i had to choose, i'd rather have Mills get the :camby: than Fiz.

over the last 6 years, whether GM or Prez, Mills' record is 165-337.

we have only won 33% of the time :mindblown:

from the players to the coaching staff, it starts from the top.
 

storyteller

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So I was wondering, Brett brown from the 76ers has been with them since like 2013 and they endured 4 straight losing seasons and tanked. They stuck with him and showed continuity and eventually found picks that thrived. hes improved as a coach and the sixers have now become a playoff team and one of the favorites to go to the finals. Do you think our fanbase or front office has the patience to go through this? 4 coaches since brett brown has been in philly shows no continuity on our part. I mean the media doesn’t make it any better but I think we should def continue to build through the draft(find a point guard) Trade the veterans for picks when we can and find the right pieces. DEVELOP YOUR PICKS!!! That means Mitch, RJ, Knox, Frank, trier, Dotson, brazdeikis should all get precedence!

I think it's unfair to blame it on impatience when Knicks fans by and large asked for a true rebuild. The FO could have done a bunch of things to just lean into a rebuild and the fans would have more patience while Fizdale would have an easier time playing young guys.

FO missteps that set up fans to expect more than they've gotten:
- Waiving Noah for cap space...the first clue that they weren't actually in the bag for a rebuild.

- Trading KP for cap space instead of maximizing the assets returned (I didn't really mind this though, I'm a fan of flexibility but it gets exacerbated by the next one).

- Talking out both sides of their mouths about the max FA's (this one could have been passable if not for Dolan really making it worse and exposing what these guys really had in mind).

- Instead of plan B being rebuilding, they spent all of the cap space no marginal upgrades. Tony Snell dropped 24 on us shooting 100% from field...he's not good, but he's not much worse than guys we paid...Detroit took his contract and got a late first round pick out of the deal. Iguodala's contract is expiring...Memphis took that expiring and got a future pick with top 5 protection on it only in the deal.

- Then they gassed the marginal signings...this team was framed as taking the next step. My cautious optimism had us around 25 wins and most fans wanted 30 wins...we're on pace to be even worse than last year.

- And finally either by their mandate or Fizdale's desperation to keep his job the team has focused on the Vets over the kids. After RJ; Morris, Randle and Payton hold the MPG lead so far. Payton's injury is what opened up minutes for young PG's. Portis is averaging the most minutes off the bench.

If you want Knicks fans to be patient, you've gotta give them a vision for the future that's worth waiting for. Right now the vision the FO built was based on FA's rather than the youth and the rotations reflect that. I think if they dropped Perry, Mills and Fizdale for a future focused FO and coach...the patience might actually come back. Problem is a coach installing a new system midseason is gonna be brutal regardless of who it is and the kids will be in a tough spot while vets might get mad. It's all self-inflicted though and the fans have a right to be upset about it. The rebuild moves weren't the ones we got this offseason. We got a kick the can strategy that leaves us with options to turn it around but also leaves us with very little to look forward to until this FO shows more competence.
 

No Homo

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Jigga with the Roley and the Vest
So I was wondering, Brett brown from the 76ers has been with them since like 2013 and they endured 4 straight losing seasons and tanked. They stuck with him and showed continuity and eventually found picks that thrived. hes improved as a coach and the sixers have now become a playoff team and one of the favorites to go to the finals. Do you think our fanbase or front office has the patience to go through this? 4 coaches since brett brown has been in philly shows no continuity on our part. I mean the media doesn’t make it any better but I think we should def continue to build through the draft(find a point guard) Trade the veterans for picks when we can and find the right pieces. DEVELOP YOUR PICKS!!! That means Mitch, RJ, Knox, Frank, trier, Dotson, brazdeikis should all get precedence!

That should've been the plan..that's why I put the blame on the FO.

I dont think any of you guys here or any Knick fans in general wouldve been opposed to watching RJ, DSJR, Frank, Knox , and Mitch grow and knowing they are making mistakes because they are young team but the core will continue to grow and get better. Especially having your pick this year so if its a lotto pick, its another player to add to the core with a year of experience under their belt.
Its hope and thats a young core you could see the promise in esp with RJ being the centerpiece.

But the FO fumbled wanting to compete and tossing the blame. All they had to do was stay the course...absolutely no reason to sign Portis, Randle and Morris.
 

storyteller

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Just grabbing a great post from Realgm to show heads how a good analytics stat head evaluates the numbers not just by cherry picking a few making poor conclusions but by trying to include a handful of complimenting pieces to get a better idea of what's happening...

So it's been 11 games, let's check in with some on/off numbers and advanced stats

As of right now, only 3 Knicks have a positive Net Rating, Iggy (+25), Dot (+4.4), and Payton (+3.9)

We are currently the worst offensive team in the league, scoring 99.3 points per 100 possessions, and the 9th worst defensive team, giving up 110.2 points per 100 possessions, making us the worst net team in the league, with a Net Rating of -10.9

So, it looks like our best PG is Payton just going by him having a positive Net Rating, but I think that's a little off, and here's why. Our offense as a whole scored a lot more with him on (108.5 Offensive Rating), but all our playmaking stats are dreadful when he was on. We only had 1.05 assists to turnovers, our assist ratio (assists per 100 possessions) was only 13.9, and our assist percentage (how many scores the team assisted on) was only 45.7, and we turned the ball over 18.3% of the time. So that to me says that with Payton, we had a lot of one on one play, which happened to work out, there wasn't much facilitating involved. Meaning I don't think that keeps up as the season goes on, so we should take his on/off with a grain of salt

Now on the flip side, while Frank can't score on offense to save his life, with him out there, the ball movement has been pretty decent. He's only at a 99.0 Offensive Rating, but when you take out the outliers, he's 3rd on the team behind RJ and Morris (who are both under 100). So, we don't score much, but we pass a lot better as a team. 1.41 assists to turnovers, 16.1 assist ratio, and 61.1 assist percentage, 15.6 turnover percentage. And if you only look at games where Frank's started, those numbers increase slightly, to where Frank actually leads the team in Offensive Rating, and the on/off metrics say we're significantly better when he's on, but still a bad team overall. We go from a -9 with him on to a -22 with him off, with our offensive rating being an abysmal 88.3 without Frank, and the defense being pretty much unchanging with or without him, mostly because Mitch is out, when Frank and Mitch are both in, our defense is great, but without Mitch, our defense turns to sh*t

So my conclusion from this is, as usual, for as much as Frank can't do sh*t on offense, he isn't actually hurting the team out there. We need another PG to get healthy and step up, because while Frank isn't really hurting us, he isn't really making us any better, either, he just looks good on paper due to having literally no backup PG. And, also as usual, Mitch needs to play for us to be good
 

Ty-Fife

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I think it's unfair to blame it on impatience when Knicks fans by and large asked for a true rebuild. The FO could have done a bunch of things to just lean into a rebuild and the fans would have more patience while Fizdale would have an easier time playing young guys.

FO missteps that set up fans to expect more than they've gotten:
- Waiving Noah for cap space...the first clue that they weren't actually in the bag for a rebuild.

- Trading KP for cap space instead of maximizing the assets returned (I didn't really mind this though, I'm a fan of flexibility but it gets exacerbated by the next one).

- Talking out both sides of their mouths about the max FA's (this one could have been passable if not for Dolan really making it worse and exposing what these guys really had in mind).

- Instead of plan B being rebuilding, they spent all of the cap space no marginal upgrades. Tony Snell dropped 24 on us shooting 100% from field...he's not good, but he's not much worse than guys we paid...Detroit took his contract and got a late first round pick out of the deal. Iguodala's contract is expiring...Memphis took that expiring and got a future pick with top 5 protection on it only in the deal.

- Then they gassed the marginal signings...this team was framed as taking the next step. My cautious optimism had us around 25 wins and most fans wanted 30 wins...we're on pace to be even worse than last year.

- And finally either by their mandate or Fizdale's desperation to keep his job the team has focused on the Vets over the kids. After RJ; Morris, Randle and Payton hold the MPG lead so far. Payton's injury is what opened up minutes for young PG's. Portis is averaging the most minutes off the bench.

If you want Knicks fans to be patient, you've gotta give them a vision for the future that's worth waiting for. Right now the vision the FO built was based on FA's rather than the youth and the rotations reflect that. I think if they dropped Perry, Mills and Fizdale for a future focused FO and coach...the patience might actually come back. Problem is a coach installing a new system midseason is gonna be brutal regardless of who it is and the kids will be in a tough spot while vets might get mad. It's all self-inflicted though and the fans have a right to be upset about it. The rebuild moves weren't the ones we got this offseason. We got a kick the can strategy that leaves us with options to turn it around but also leaves us with very little to look forward to until this FO shows more competence.

I guarantee that if we get blowed out by the Mavs at the Garden, the crowd's gonna call for blood. I just hope that PIlls are in the crowd when it happens. :hubie:
 

RickyGQ

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So I was wondering, Brett brown from the 76ers has been with them since like 2013 and they endured 4 straight losing seasons and tanked. They stuck with him and showed continuity and eventually found picks that thrived. hes improved as a coach and the sixers have now become a playoff team and one of the favorites to go to the finals. Do you think our fanbase or front office has the patience to go through this? 4 coaches since brett brown has been in philly shows no continuity on our part. I mean the media doesn’t make it any better but I think we should def continue to build through the draft(find a point guard) Trade the veterans for picks when we can and find the right pieces. DEVELOP YOUR PICKS!!! That means Mitch, RJ, Knox, Frank, trier, Dotson, brazdeikis should all get precedence!
Of course we do. Look at the guys in this thread. Some of us have been posting about the Knicks since the early to mid 2000s. This fan base is one of the most loyal fan bases in sports and it’s for the most part a pretty sophisticated fan base. Nobody would be too upset if we swung out in KD and just said “we got a lot of young guys, we got money and we have slot of picks. We gonna roll this out and be a juggernaut in 4 years.” Watching guys you have no investment in lose by 20 is much worse than what the sixers were doing. Idk why people can’t see that sometimes.
 

RickyGQ

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Just grabbing a great post from Realgm to show heads how a good analytics stat head evaluates the numbers not just by cherry picking a few making poor conclusions but by trying to include a handful of complimenting pieces to get a better idea of what's happening...

i wonder how much of Payton’s numbers have to do with his explosion off the bench against SA. He hasn’t done much else since that game.
 

Silky Johnson

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Of course we do. Look at the guys in this thread. Some of us have been posting about the Knicks since the early to mid 2000s. This fan base is one of the most loyal fan bases in sports and it’s for the most part a pretty sophisticated fan base. Nobody would be too upset if we swung out in KD and just said “we got a lot of young guys, we got money and we have slot of picks. We gonna roll this out and be a juggernaut in 4 years.” Watching guys you have no investment in lose by 20 is much worse than what the sixers were doing. Idk why people can’t see that sometimes.

It's 2009 all over again

Randle is Al Harrington
Morris is David Lee
French Fry is DooDoohan

:mjcry:
 
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