Older thread '20 NYK Off-season Thread

[ISO]

Im not paying 25 million for a nikka thats JUST A STARTER
foh
you think vanvleet is the difference between going to the playoffs or something
Cause I dont see it at all. Especially not at that price point
also him running an offense against teams second units is not the same thing kyle does year in and year out
if he comes at a reasonable price I'd love to have him. But to overpay??? You nikkas are crazy

Who said $25M

His market value is $18-20M. As a bad team we’re rumored to offer $22M. It’s not a max contract and it’s fine in today’s NBA for a high level starting player especially a 25 year old entering his prime years.

Rozier made nearly $20M in Charlotte this season.

 

[ISO]

He cant be the highest player or lead player on a winning team...

No one is asking for this and I’m not sure why you and @seemorecizzy are assuming he’s coming here to jack 20 shots and like no one else is coming with him.

 

[JMurder]

I think theres some opinions in here that are based more on him hitting a few 3s in the finals and not on watching him over an entire season.NIkkas are stating his liabilities as his strengths..

Dude...we don't need to include the finals to boost up FVV. He started every game he played this season, and averaged 35 mpg. He was 41% from 3 on 7 attempts per game. He can shoot the 3. He can playmake. Those are the two biggest things the Knicks need from the guard position this year.

Fred VanVleet is a perfect fit for the Knicks in free agency

VanVleet’s versatility to play either guard position makes him fit like a glove for this current Knicks team. At just 6’1” 195 pounds, VanVleet started at shooting guard this past season in a Toronto starting lineup that had a net rating of 13.1 per 100 possessions, according to Cleaning the Glass. When Norman Powell, Toronto’s first guard off the bench, would sub in for Kyle Lowry, VanVleet would slide to the point guard spot and the Raptors wouldn’t skip a beat, outscoring their opponents by 16.2 points per 100 possessions. For the Knicks, this would give them endless lineup possibilities with VanVleet, as he could start alongside a traditional 2-guard or even share the backcourt with Ntilikina or a rookie PG. Elfrid Payton’s inefficient outside shooting and inability to play off the ball hindered the Knicks’ ability to do this last season.

In addition to his positional versatility, VanVleet’s ability to both create his own offense and space the floor is a huge plus. VanVleet shot 39.0% from three last season on 6.9 attempts per game, and improved Toronto’s 3P% by 2.3% when he was on the floor, according to Cleaning the Glass. VanVleet also improved his shot-creating ability last season, increasing his percentage of unassisted points by 8%. Even with a career high in usage rate and taking nearly five more shots per game, both VanVleet’s effective and true shooting percentage improved.

Although you would never refer to him as a “point god” like Chris Paul, VanVleet is a fine play-maker for a combo guard. While sharing point guard duties with Lowry, he averaged a career high 6.6 APG and assisted on 28.0% of his teammates’ made shots last season, an improvement of 4.0% from the year before. In 16.5 MPG without Lowry on the court last season, VanVleet’s assist percentage increased to 34.0%, which would have ranked in the top-10 at the point guard position.

This is the case for signing him.

The biggest argument against signing him is partially that he's only so good because he pays next to Kyle Lowry

FVV started 48 games for the 48-16 Raptors and improved his overall scoring efficiency on higher usage when Lowry was off the floor. If he’s just a band-aid or a role player you’d expect to see some major drop-off when he’s out there running the show by himself, but it doesn’t. His statistical output and impact metrics — on both ends — are comparable to Jrue Holiday at the same point in their careers. Most Knicks fans would gladly have signed up for Jrue from age 26-28, which is what a 3-year deal for FVV would take him through.

System players don’t up their usage and play a more prominent role as a starter with an uptick in efficiency when an MVP-level player leaves town. They don’t do that on a diet of shots increasingly reliant on self-creation, rather than assisted looks. Almost never do they average as many drives per game as noted offensive stars like Devin Booker, Kyrie Irving, Donovan Mitchell, etc.

As long as we don't make FVV the sole signing as well as expect him to be an elite shot creator we'd be fine offering him 3 yrs 67m. This is a guy who got bored when he got injured so he looked up his advanced stats in order to figure out how he can get better.
'Bored out of mind' VanVleet close to Raptors return | Toronto Sun

“What do we miss when we don’t have Fred out there? We miss a pretty solid shooter, we miss an offense organizer, we miss a good communicator on D, and one of my favourite things is he seems to be a bit of a bail-out bucket-maker,” Nurse said. “When things aren’t going well in the offence or when the shot clock’s running late, he can fill in a few of those buckets for us, too.”
...
“I’ve been bored out of my mind so I studied some analytics a little bit, watched a lot of film, and just seeing where I can get better,” he said. “This feels like October again for me so I’m approaching this as a new season, the end of the season, and hopefully I can come back and take another jump of improvement towards the end of the season.”

The case for him just as an addition is stronger than the case against

 

[JMurder]

Im not paying 25 million for a nikka thats JUST A STARTER
foh
you think vanvleet is the difference between going to the playoffs or something
Cause I dont see it at all. Especially not at that price point
also him running an offense against teams second units is not the same thing kyle does year in and year out
if he comes at a reasonable price I'd love to have him. But to overpay??? You nikkas are crazy

No one is saying pay FVV 25 mil so relax

Boston is paying Kemba 35 mil a year with a 4th year player option...Terry Rozier is getting payed 18 mil a year in Charlotte, and we quibbling over whether to pay FVV 22 mil

As I stated earlier, FVV is the type of point guard we need to help our youth get better. He checks all of the boxes when it comes to helping RJ, Mitch's done even Frank improve. Sign a stretch 4 and make great draft choices and we have a legitimate foundation in New York. We also won't get good enough to make the playoffs and therefore will still have decent lottery odds next season. Make another strong draft pick and continue to develop the youth under Thibs and staff. Its a great way to start. What's your alternative?

 

[JMurder]

Me and Iso stay agreeing in Knicks off-season but will we have that same energy when the season starts

 

[JMurder]

For all you dudes taking a stand at "I refuse to overpay for FVV," take a look at the current guard contracts in the league and ask yourself if this is a line worth standing on

NBA Active Player Contracts

If you think dude is worse than a bunch of dudes getting paid 21m or less then cool

 

[ISO]

Me and Iso stay agreeing in Knicks off-season but will we have that same energy when the season starts

If the French boy doesn’t play better I’m on your ass

 

[JMurder]

If the French boy doesn’t play better I’m on your ass

He already started playing better this season. Hopefully the development staff and Thibs will have him playing like he was the end of the season or better.

Last 6 games he was throwing up 7.5 shots a game for 9.5 points.

Last 15 games he had a fg% of 46 and a 3P% of 36. Also 2RPG, 3 assists to 1 turnover, 2.5 fouls in 20MPG.

Small sample size but something to build on hopefully

 

[Miggs]

For all you dudes taking a stand at "I refuse to overpay for FVV," take a look at the current guard contracts in the league and ask yourself if this is a line worth standing on

NBA Active Player Contracts

If you think dude is worse than a bunch of dudes getting paid 21m or less then cool

I think hes better than Brogdon but id still be hesitant to pay him over that contract...

 

[Miggs]

No one is saying pay FVV 25 mil so relax

Boston is paying Kemba 35 mil a year with a 4th year player option...Terry Rozier is getting payed 18 mil a year in Charlotte, and we quibbling over whether to pay FVV 22 mil

As I stated earlier, FVV is the type of point guard we need to help our youth get better. He checks all of the boxes when it comes to helping RJ, Mitch's done even Frank improve. Sign a stretch 4 and make great draft choices and we have a legitimate foundation in New York. We also won't get good enough to make the playoffs and therefore will still have decent lottery odds next season. Make another strong draft pick and continue to develop the youth under Thibs and staff. Its a great way to start. What's your alternative?

Knicks wont get him at 22....Knicks will have to go higher at a number the Raps arent willing to match...I believe he wants to stay but he also wants to get paid.

I think Raptors will match 20-22..25 and up i dont think they will on 4-5 years...

 

[JMurder]

Knicks wont get him at 22....Knicks will have to go higher at a number the Raps arent willing to match...I believe he wants to stay but he also wants to get paid.

I think Raptors will match 20-22..25 and up i dont think they will on 4-5 years...

And if that's the case fine... But like I said earlier, I've heard they don't want to pay him more than 20 mil because it'll limit their ability to add to the roster since they gave Siakam the bag

 

[Kang Deezy]

I like van fleet for the Knicks if it doesn’t go over 20 million a year

 

[tremonthustler1]

I like van fleet for the Knicks if it doesn’t go over 20 million a year

It probably will, but free agency this year is gonna be super risky because there won’t be so many suitors. Unless Detroit is gunning after him too, nobody would have to overbid for him.


This is one year where if they’re doing whatever, pushing the draft after the start of free agency should be something to consider.

 

[RickyGQ]

How is he a role player. Wayne Ellington is a role player. His role is to shoot threes off screens. That’s his role he is a role player.

VanVleet is not a role player he’s a starting level player. He runs P&R’s, he’s a guy who can score from all three zones, he defends at a high level. How is he a role player.

Eh, role players start too. I guess your advocating for something between role player and star player which i agree, i feel there needs to be a distinction. But VanVleet isn’t going to be someone who is going to score 25 a night and be the focus of your team. he will also contribute significantly to your team competing each night in many different ways so who knows.

 

[RickyGQ]

i agree with this
and again, i think he fits better with a contending team thats already built up. he has his role and hes good at it.

as opposed to bringing him to a rebuilding team and making him da highest paid player on a long term contract. that comes with expectations.

Everything he can do for a contending team he should be able to come to the Knicks and do for them if they construct the roster the right way. We’re not paying him to be the leading scorer and carry us to a deep playoff run. We’re paying him to give RJ space, hit open threes, facilitate and play defense. A player who can do all that is always going to come at a premium. The alternative is to role out another Elfrid Payton type of guard off the scarp heap for 8 million or a rookie who we hope can do at least one of the things i listed.