Outside Of Nas himself, no one has done more for his career than Hov, Jay saved his career

[Murkman]

Nobody is arguing this. Stick to what people are actually arguing instead of strawmans.

No.

I think you're taking the dictionary definition of blueprint and trying to apply it to Nas' line when it was just wordplay b/c that's what Jay's forthcoming (at the time) album was gonna be called.
We are just talking influence.

Nobody is saying Nas was 100% the source of Jay's style on RD. Of course Jay has numerous influences. Again, you are arguing points nobody is asserting.

Illmatic was out in NY in 93. It had been completed and bootlegged long before its street date. Now I don't personally know whether Jay had the bootleg in 93, but I think he had a line about that? And i would expect him to have it.

What about the style change though?

Uh, that first page is kinda saying the opposite of what you said wasn't literal.
The Nas stans on that page pretty much said "Yeah Hov was a Nas dikkrider, and made his blueprint" (nobody else according to their accounts). It got 40+ daps, idk if you feigning ignorance, but they seem to take it at surface value.

I'm using "straw man's" when you guys were just dapping the shyt out of Nas stans once again just clowning for the sake of it, without giving a fuller context? But you know go ahead and glance over that.
.

They took that dictionary definition quite literally, after all this was the height of their beef. If Jay has "numerous influences" why in the hell do Nas stans insist (other than Jaz-O, Biggie, and Das/Fu) above all things considered, claim he's mostly biting him?

Other than the line he used, how did he "bite Nas"? His style didn't change the way Nas did at the time. He still had Brooklyn influences from previous rappers, you and Nas himself said rapped like. Like I said before, it's a Mafioso Rap album, that's where the style change came from.

Nas did the same shyt at the exact same year, so where did his "style change" come from? See? They both transitioned taking inspiration from the same pool of predecessors. So, for the last time how did he cause the style change, when it was due to an emcee they both derived influence from? Are you telling me Nas rapping on Illmatic, an album that no way sounds like Reasonable Doubt, is why the "style change" occured?

Hov was ALREADY writing for RD years prior Illmatic. He still kept the styles of other emcees Nas said he did, while doing things his own way. Him using one line isn't a "style change". So,

You can hear some Kane too on that album, Brooklyn emcees (excluding Biggie as he didn't come up with that trend either) along with KGR's early Mafioso shyt caused it, it's that simple. It's like you guys are thinking this is Rocket Science, and that Nas flew NY to fukking moon. If he dropped his album in 94, and decided to write and rap like him, I would entirely agree, but as you can tell it's not true. That's it, I am leaving at that, anything else at this point is somehow gonna be misconstrued, or get me negged just because, so that's my side.

 

[jj23]

goes to show how good both these guys are, nikkas still arguing useless points decades later.
for my money nas is the better lyricist and speaks on more diverse topics
hov wins on flow and production, and the double entendres are crazy.

Both top 5, easy. Put some respect on that. Neither is wack

 

[letti cook]

has anyone pointed out that Nas started out his deconstruction of Hov by saying "i was fukked over, left for dead , dissed and forgotten, luck ran out, thought i'd be gone, stiffen rotten...pissed on me...shyt on me...spit on my grave"...

( cant run through the thread right now)

its like when nikkas was debating about Reasonable Doubt not impacting when it hit...HOV said it his damn self on "Hard Knock Life"

Nas needed that spark..The battle gave it to him

 

[SirBiatch]

Nah you don't. That's where you're wrong. Saying that Supreme Clientele is the last classic hip hop album is some flabby shyt. No way around that.

I don't trust anyone over 30 when it comes to being objective about Hip Hop

with your low standards and insecurity

 

[mobbinfms]

has anyone pointed out that Nas started out his deconstruction of Hov by saying "i was fukked over, left for dead , dissed and forgotten, luck ran out, thought i'd be gone, stiffen rotten...pissed on me...shyt on me...spit on my grave"...

( cant run through the thread right now)

its like when nikkas was debating about Reasonable Doubt not impacting when it hit...HOV said it his damn self on "Hard Knock Life"

Nas needed that spark..The battle gave it to him

Was that about his career though or the battle?

 

[Majestic]

Good thread btw

 

[LogicFirst]

The fukked up part is that Jay actually won because winning to Jay was having Nas acknowledge his existence.

 

[MJ Truth]

Saying Artist A dropped a diss track to Artist B that revitalized B's career is NOT a positive for Artist A.

 

[mobbinfms]

The fukked up part is that Jay actually won because winning to Jay was having Nas acknowledge his existence.

:prodigylol:

 

[mobbinfms]

Uh, that first page is kinda saying the opposite of what you said wasn't literal.

Quote the posts Breh

he Nas stans on that page pretty much said "Yeah Hov was a Nas dikkrider, and made his blueprint" (nobody else according to their accounts)

Have you heard the Stillmatic freestyle breh?

using "straw man's" when you guys were just dapping the shyt out of Nas stans once again just clowning for the sake of it, without giving a fuller context?

A dap is just a dap Breh

His style didn't change the way Nas did at the time.

what does this mean?

Like I said before, it's a Mafioso Rap album, that's where the style change came from.

That and Illmatic

Nas did the same shyt at the exact same year, so where did his "style change" come from?

Nas' style was the same. You're confusing style and subject matter.
The Source review for IWW said his style hadn't changed but it was as good as could be and if it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[mobbinfms]

o, for the last time how did he cause the style change, when it was due to an emcee they both derived influence from? Are you telling me Nas rapping on Illmatic, an album that no way sounds like Reasonable Doubt, is why the "style change" occured?

You're confusing pioneering a style with utilizing a style and influencing others to do the same.

ov was ALREADY writing for RD years prior Illmatic. He still kept the styles of other emcees Nas said he did, while doing things his own way. H

Are you arguing Jay wrote RD before he heard Illmatic?

 

[filial_piety]

People have revisionist history when it comes to Nas. Jay saved his career, twice.

First of all, prior to Ether and that beef, Nas was and history says he would have more likely than not been finished if Jay would have kept his mouth shut. That beef didn't end either one of them, but it helped Nas revive his career, while Jigga was murdering everything. Had Jay not dissed him, Nas could have probably been done after I Flab... And Flabtradamus.

Jay did Nas another favor by being kind enough to sign him to Def Jam, which he also didn't have to do, that helped his career in a big way too.

So instead of hating J-Hova, y'all should pay homage.

People who say this are like the people who say that the Nazis ended the great depression


According to their math...if the Nazis hadn't of tried to conquer Europe...then it wouldn't have started a war...and the US war industry would have never created jobs and generated money.

Same thing applies to Nas and Jigga

 

[neko_804]

@mobbinfms

Wait a minute, so apparently NOBODY else was around for him to draw influences from but Nas? Nas wasn't the only one doing that introspective street shyt at the time either. Don't you think Hov also "caved in" to admitting he "bit his style" because of the pressure at the time? Of course, "Illmatic" has undeniable influence, yet you can't say it was his blueprint when once again KGR helped him make it. It wasn't ALL due to Nas, but Rakim as well, that's what I was saying. You guys blindly give him 100% credit ignoring the others who aren't credited, for paving the way for it to exist as an album.

The quote from KGR himself, implies he coached him. Because before Illmatic, he was always in his studio turning in demos and having his writing looked over by him for approval, and was mentored by him. Nas was more or less, 15 at the time only furthering the validity. So, this nikka was already arrogant enough at that age, still thinking he was totally capable of doing that without HIS instructions and guidance?

Execs even said "Yo, G Rap he sounds just like you ", well that wasn't exactly a coincidence or unsubstantiated.



Imagine if KGR wasn't around, you wouldn't even have Nas's first album, hell ANYONE else's NY first albums from 1991-1999 to begin with!



They all borrowed from that template of his more than anyone, but you guys just gonna saying it was only Nas?

What that author falsely claimed is intellectual laziness. Hov wrote and recorded his first song around 1993-1994. There is no way in 1993, that he even heard of Illmatic being made at the same time, (he was writing for "Reasonable Doubt" anyways) regardless of who would drop albums in the next year. It's called "In My Lifetime", released in 1995, and yeah you can hear the "Das-Fu cadence" for a few lines, but overall that foreshadows what you'd hear on "Bring It On" (Jaz-O coincidentally is there, but whatever).



Him and Nas barely share resemblance as emcees, in style and artistry. "Ready To Die" sounds like a Brooklyn version of "Illmatic", not "Reasonable Doubt" which was dropped 3 years later. Mafioso Rap albums was the main trend at the time of 1995-1999, and neither of the 3 came up with that as originators - KGR did.

Nas was saying without them he would've not been shyt, yet he still incorporated their "triplet gimmick" in new ways, and quickly evolved his general style - that in no way is traceable to Nas. East Coast emcees wore their influences on their sleeves, so why is Nas acting like it's not entirely obvious who provided the template to his style too?




Hov didn't write his first album like "Illmatic" either, the structure and sequencing is different as well as the beat selection, flows, rhyme schemes, choices in topics, subject matter, lyrical expression/content/themes, etc. It was Mafioso Rap, NOT Street Rap.

I can hear what Nas took what other emcees, it's as clear as day, but Nas didn't introduce a "new style", he put his name on it and then everyone followed suit. So, from 1993-1996 Hov didn't do anything other than sample that one line to make "Dead Presidents". Which is perfectly fine, as Nas sampled a lot of lines from other NY Rap artists (Nas took Rakim's line from "Mahogany" during the scratches of "N.Y. State of Mind".) Their storytelling is different too, Hov is extremely cerebral and analytical, Nas was more interpersonal and observational. To me, Biggie sounds more Nas than anyone else at that period of time.
You guys make an exception for Hov as some "Buffet style biter", yet he still didn't copy Nas in anyway given his style for his first album, didn't even remotely sound like his to begin with. To conclude this Nas was 17, Hov was 24 and the age range itself shows the differences in writing approach for providing perspective and context.




At this point, I respect what you guys are saying, but given the literal "Hysteria" Nas mentioned on the album itself, that appears to still cloud judgment and provide a one-sided view of the era. It was an inaccurate portrayal of exact circumstances, there were certain factors involved like impact, but you both confuse it with "influence".

It's almost as if you guys make special exceptions for checking the credibility of some NYC artists, but not those like Nas who you willingly stan for.
If you're gonna pull a card, do that to one which makes sure the whole house falls down. Don't pull a card from the side or upper levels to have it appear, and change the course of history.

In this case KGR, Rakim, Kane, Run, LL, etc., were the foundation, while Nas and Hov were on the same row of cards above them.
It's more coincidental, that Nas and Hov were a few spaces away from each other.

But the Coli is obsessed with Nas and doesn't really care about stating HIS influences, which is like talking to a wall.
So I suppose that already makes my arguments moot, to be labeled as some dumbass "Camel stanning". If I get negged for any of what I aforementioned, that only proves my overall point that Nas stans are incapable of listening to reason and taking other people's points of view on evaluating facts and cultural trends, seriously.



Nas didn't even wear Pink until Cam made it popular, but am I gonna call him a "disrespectful biter"?

Later, brehs. Overall, I ain't even shytting on Nas, but damn some of you really do not like hearing what other users want to provide.

Negged

 

[filial_piety]

Just reading through the thread...I just gotta say...

Nas was influenced by a lot of rappers...he mostly accredits Slick Rick, Rakim and G Rap for his style...

But as much as his ego wouldn't allow him to admit it...I think Tragedy Khadafi and Cormega had the biggest influence on his style.

If you listen to Live Motivator by Tragedy from 1986 and Cormega on Going Straight Up in 1989...it's very easy to hear the style similarity...everything from the types of metaphores and the flow. Plus everyne from QB said that those dudes were the rap kings back then around the way.

It's not hard to believe that Nas really respected them and actually looked up to them to a large extent when he was inventing his own style.

 

[filial_piety]

With very rare exceptions, anyone under 30 does not have the full breadth of knowledge to be credible in such debates. Unless they've done a tremendous amount of catch up.

all true...and everyone needs to know their lane and stay in their place.

I grew up withall my teen years in the 90s...I remember every year and just about the vibe, the style what was hot...what I slept, when I first heard certain artists, when I first bought the cassettes of certain classic albums etc etc.

And I will openly admit that while I can talk about it in detail all day long...I can't talk about some things in HH...like the early 80s Dana Dane, Roxanne Shante, Kool herc, Bambatta etc... mean I always knew of them, but there's just a certain depth to the discussion that I can't have with people that were there.

That's how I feel when someone under 30 wants to talk about 90s hip hop. IN MY EYES you can't just look at all of Nas's albums and say "this is the best one" without putting into a certain context imo...there's simply a certain perspective that's lost for someone who simply wasn't there to experience it as it was unfolding or when it came out.


There's a crazy storyline in Nas's career from about 1991 to 1999.