Papoose: Nas Greatness gets downplayed because....

[Awesome Wells]

I think he changed his artistc direction for sure but I think why its still a debate about if he was inconsistent. Even if he was precieved consistent by some rap fans (Street NY dudes) or not, his albums after God Son still got decent to good critical acclaim. If it was more universally panned or seen as a dissapoint, this narrative would be stonger and for sure. You can correlate the change with sales decline but 90% of the game was declining in sales by the mid 2000s and he still sold decently (HHID close to 800k SD for 750k)
I also think most artists after a 10 year run arent gonna cool as they change direction but with Nas it seems to be a bigger scarlett letter on him for a natural cool off. I think also people do still appreciate him as an aging rapper for albums like Life is Good and King's Disease though.

So I think that why he still gets debated about, but I dont think dissmissing as new fans vs OG fans is a entirely fair take and just sounds like hipster gatekeeping lol

True, I can see that.

He said after his moms got sick, that he started writing "different kinds of shyt". So I think there was a serious shift for him around that time, and the direction he was going in kinda alienated a lot of his old fans because that's right when the sales dropped. He said he was making music for himself, so he didn't care about how it was received. This was when he started selling less. That could also be due to the "Ether" hype dying down too though. But a lot of Hip Hop artists at his level were still selling a ton of records around this time. Nas was declining sales-wise before the industry took the hit later on.

I don’t know about any gatekeeping. I just know that a lot of people post about things they don’t really support. You can see it in the sales. Nas and GFK both spoke on it. New fans don’t buy albums as much as OG fans. The OG fans were buying every damn album these dudes dropped. And like Ghost said, "People come up to me all the time saying how they're a fan of mine now, but I don’t see that same love when my album drops. If you just became a fan, don’t tell me about it, go buy that album."

 

[Ziggiy]

This here.

For those of us who’ve been around since Illmatic and before, there was a sharp decline in quality for Nas immediately after the first version of I Am leaked and didn’t drop. He was untouchable before ’99. His albums became hit or miss after that. And he was never really able to regain the following he had around ’96. IWW is still his best-selling album. God’s Son was his last actual platinum album. Street’s Disciple was certified platinum because it was a double album, shipped at a million, but actually sold about 700 and change. This was spoken about a lot back then. Half of the people who bought God's Son, didn't show up for Nas when he dropped again a couple years later. "Ether" brought in a lot of new fans for him, so he was rolling from Stillmatic to God's Son, but half of those same "fans" stopped buying his music after '03, and never came back.

After the 90’s, a lot of OG Nas fans found him boring. I see that said a lot all over NY and in barbershops here, and I can understand why they feel that way. He changed a lot since the first 9 years of his career (’91-’00). So less people started biggin’ him up in the way they did prior to that. But after “Ether”, he picked up a lot of white fans, for whatever reason. So his following online changed crazy, but that never really translated into actual hit records or huge sales for him.

The thing about Nas stans is, they’re not like the OG fans because they’re not really buying his music as much as his original fans. Over time, he picked up fans who say he’s the GOAT, but they don’t actually buy his shyt. And then he’s lost a lot of his original hardcore street fans who lived for the stuff he was doing ’93-’98. Which is probably why he doesn’t have many universally-lauded hit records. Nas has always been in my Top 10, he's been one of the greats forever, but I’ll be the first to admit that his catalog fell off dramatically from what we all expected it to be down the line after the first couple of albums. I don’t think his greatness gets downplayed at all, but he’s been mad inconsistent for awhile. Any true Nas fan knows that, anyone saying otherwise, is lying.

1). SD was NOT certified platinum due to the discs being counted twice. This is factually incorrect and has been corrected multiple times in this thread. A double album has to clock in in at least 100 minutes for it to be counted twice. SD clocks in at just under 88 minutes. Therefore SD was a “pure” platinum selling album without the double disc “sales stimulus”.


2). It makes no sense whatsoever to say that Nas had more “white” fans AFTER his commercial peak from 96-02. There’s no basis whatsoever in FACT for that to be anything more than an opinion. I couldn’t see a whole bunch of white people flocking to buy Distant Relatives, an album whose sole purpose was to celebrate the African Diaspora, and yet that album debuted within the top 5 of billboard. I certainly couldn’t see a bunch of white people flocking to purchase to Untitled, whose original title was ****** and was a dissertation on modern day race relations.

You say that whatever fan-base, black or white, didn’t translate into huge sales for him. And yet Hip Hop Is Dead OUTSOLD SD’s first week and was Nas’s first number 1 debut since 99. Nas’s first week even OUTSOLD Young Jeezy, at the HEIGHT of Jeezy’s popularity, two weeks AFTER Jeezy publicly proclaimed that he’d outsell Nas. Untitled debuted at number 1. Life Is Good debuted at number 1. All three albums were Grammy nominated. Moreover Hip Hop Is Dead & Untitled had bigger first week sales than both Stillmatic and God’s Son. So this rumor of Nas suddenly not being a commercially viable artist after SD is GROSSLY overstated.


3). Name another rapper that debuted in 1994 that can release an album in the year 2020 that can debut within the top 5 of billboard? SOMEBODY is buying Nas albums because if they weren’t he’d be flopping like Snoop Dogg. Nas to date is the ONLY rapper with an album to debut within the top 5 of billboard in three different decades.




Your attempting to pass off opinions as FACT when most of it is easily debunkable

 

[Awesome Wells]

1). SD was NOT certified platinum due to the discs being counted twice. This is factually incorrect and has been corrected multiple times in this thread. A double album has to clock in in at least 100 minutes for it to be counted twice. SD clocks in at just under 88 minutes. Therefore SD was a “pure” platinum selling album without the double disc “sales stimulus”.


2). It makes no sense whatsoever to say that Nas had more “white” fans AFTER his commercial peak from 96-02. There’s no basis whatsoever in FACT for that to be anything more than an opinion. I couldn’t see a whole bunch of white people flocking to buy Distant Relatives, an album whose sole purpose was to celebrate the African Diaspora, and yet that album debuted within the top 5 of billboard. I certainly couldn’t see a bunch of white people flocking to purchase to Untitled, whose original title was ****** and was a dissertation on modern day race relations.

You say that whatever fan-base, black or white, didn’t translate into huge sales for him. And yet Hip Hop Is Dead OUTSOLD SD’s first week and was Nas’s first number 1 debut since 99. Nas’s first week even OUTSOLD Young Jeezy, at the HEIGHT of Jeezy’s popularity, two weeks AFTER Jeezy publicly proclaimed that he’d outsell Nas. Untitled debuted at number 1. Life Is Good debuted at number 1. All three albums were Grammy nominated.


3). Name another rapper that debuted in 1994 that can release an album in the year 2020 that can debut within the top 5 of billboard? SOMEBODY is buying Nas albums because if they weren’t he’d be flopping like Snoop Dogg. Nas to date is the ONLY rapper with an album to debut within the top 5 of billboard in three different decades.




Your attempting to pass off opinions as FACT when most of it is easily debunkable

I actually worked Street's Disciple at Columbia, I was there. So I know how much the album sold.

Album sales are tabulated by locality. Soundscan literally analyzes were albums were sold. From '92 on, the labels started building campaigns for marketing based on demographics and where certain artists weren't selling as strongly as other places. That's how analytics work. So they could all see who was buying these albums, and where. Hip Hop started selling way more albums in predominantly whiter areas after '96. That's not an opinion. That's a fact. Backed by data. What you "certainly can't see" is one thing. What is factual, is another.

I'm not sure why you're bringing up Jeezy, Snoop or Street Disciple's first week sales. You're being defensive. The point being made, was that half of the people that bought God's Son never came back to Nas to support his shyt. I'm not comparing his sales to anyone else's. I don’t care about all that. I'm speaking about the fact that people started to support him less. And you can see that in the numbers. Look, I get it that you see yourself as the Nas guy on here, but your opinion is your opinion and that's fine. I'm more focused on the facts and numbers, not what I think.

 

[ISO]

SD didn’t sell 1M copies it shipped that and it’s last sales report had it at around 740K. In 2004 he didn’t have a top 10 selling first week among albums released that year and in that year going Platinum was light.

Snoop doesn’t sell as much as Nas because he’s been an independent artist and because he releases music all the time.

 

[ISO]

This here.

For those of us who’ve been around since Illmatic and before, there was a sharp decline in quality for Nas immediately after the first version of I Am leaked and didn’t drop. He was untouchable before ’99. His albums became hit or miss after that. And he was never really able to regain the following he had around ’96. IWW is still his best-selling album. God’s Son was his last actual platinum album. Street’s Disciple was certified platinum because it was a double album, shipped at a million, but actually sold about 700 and change. This was spoken about a lot back then. Half of the people who bought God's Son, didn't show up for Nas when he dropped again a couple years later. "Ether" brought in a lot of new fans for him, so he was rolling from Stillmatic to God's Son, but half of those same "fans" stopped buying his music after '03, and never came back.

After the 90’s, a lot of OG Nas fans found him boring. I see that said a lot all over NY and in barbershops here, and I can understand why they feel that way. He changed a lot since the first 9 years of his career (’91-’00). So less people started biggin’ him up in the way they did prior to that. But after “Ether”, he picked up a lot of white fans, for whatever reason. So his following online changed crazy, but that never really translated into actual hit records or huge sales for him.

The thing about Nas stans is, they’re not like the OG fans because they’re not really buying his music as much as his original fans. Over time, he picked up fans who say he’s the GOAT, but they don’t actually buy his shyt. And then he’s lost a lot of his original hardcore street fans who lived for the stuff he was doing ’93-’98. Which is probably why he doesn’t have many universally-lauded hit records. Nas has always been in my Top 10, he's been one of the greats forever, but I’ll be the first to admit that his catalog fell off dramatically from what we all expected it to be down the line after the first couple of albums. I don’t think his greatness gets downplayed at all, but he’s been mad inconsistent for awhile. Any true Nas fan knows that, anyone saying otherwise, is lying.

They know Nas has a perception it’s talked about all the time but when you give them an answer they shoot it down lol smh.

 

[Awesome Wells]

SD didn’t sell 1M copies it shipped that and it’s last sales report had it at around 740K. In 2004 he didn’t have a top 10 selling first week among albums released that year and in that year going Platinum was light.

Snoop doesn’t sell as much as Nas because he’s been an independent artist and because he releases music all the time.

Facts. Thank you.

 

[Ziggiy]

I actually worked Street's Disciple at Columbia, I was there. So I know how much the album sold.

Album sales are tabulated by locality. Soundscan literally analyzes were albums were sold. From '92 on, the labels started building campaigns for marketing based on demographics and where certain artists weren't selling as strongly as other places. That's how analytics work. So they could all see who was buying these albums, and where. Hip Hop started selling way more albums in predominantly whiter areas after '96. That's not an opinion. That's a fact. Backed by data. What you "certainly can't see" is one thing. What is factual, is another.

I'm not sure why you're bringing up Jeezy, Snoop or Street Disciple's first week sales. You're being defensive. The point being made, was that half of the people that bought God's Son never came back to Nas to support his shyt. I'm not comparing his sales to anyone else's. I don’t care about all that. I'm speaking about the fact that people started to support him less. And you can see that in the numbers. Look, I get it that you see yourself as the Nas guy on here, but your opinion is your opinion and that's fine. I'm more focused on the facts and numbers, not what I think.

Ok so basically you have ZERO facts to back up what your saying...


Anybody can say anything. I can say I worked marketing on Lost Tapes 2 and it sold one million copies in 3 days so in fact its double platinum by now..


Guess what? Without any PROOF that claim doesn’t mean shyt. The FACT is that YOU claimed SD Only went Platinum because it was a double album when the FACT of matter is that it didn’t meet the criteria. I can pull up the link right now to BACK up that statement

https://wikivisually.com/wiki/RIAA_certification


Where’s your data concerning Nas’s sales by demographic, race, religious affiliation or whatever? I highly doubt you can provide it because for you it doesn’t EXIST. Pull out your data and your facts and PROVE that your opinions and claims have merit. If not all your doing is just sprouting false information thats easily debunkable.


And again bringing facts into the equation to prove a point isn’t defensive, its how you PROVE something. The PROOF is that Nas’s sales were extremely decent post 2002 and show that he has remained a presence in commercial and mainstream Hip Hop since that period. Never claimed he was the number 1 selling or the highest selling. But he HAS had consistent sales success continually placing within the Top 5 debuts whenever he drops an album, 18 years after his debut. And not one of his peers can claim similar success since his closest peer didn’t debut until two years later.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Ok so basically you have ZERO facts to back up what your saying...


Anybody can say anything. I can say I worked marketing on Lost Tapes 2 and it sold one million copies in 3 days so in fact its double platinum by now..


Guess what? Without any PROOF that claim doesn’t mean shyt. The FACT is that YOU claimed SD Only went Platinum because it was a double album when the FACT of matter is that it didn’t meet the criteria. I can pull up the link right now to BACK up that statement

https://wikivisually.com/wiki/RIAA_certification


Where’s your data concerning Nas’s sales by demographic, race, religious affiliation or whatever? I highly doubt you can provide it because for you it doesn’t EXIST. Pull out your data and your facts and PROVE that your opinions and claims have merit. If not all your doing is just sprouting false information thats easily debunkable.


And again bringing facts into the equation to prove a point isn’t defensive, its how you PROVE something. The PROOF is that Nas’s sales were extremely decent post 2002 and show that he has remained a presence in commercial and mainstream Hip Hop since that period. Never claimed he was the number 1 selling or the highest selling. But he HAS had consistent sales success continually placing within the Top 5 debuts whenever he drops an album, 18 years after his debut. And not one of his peers can claim similar success since his closest peer didn’t debut until two years later.

You've been given plenty of facts. SD was literally pressed on all media, CD, vinyl and cassette. And sold 700 and change. You should do more homework. Not wikipedia. You're a Nas fan, I get it. So am I, but I'm not going to bore you or anyone else on here with my opinion. I'm also not going to get emotional or defensive over any of this. Everything I posted can be verified. Do your Googling and see for yourself.

Saying shyt like "Nas's sales were extremely decent" is literally your opinion. LOL!! I was there, Nas and Columbia didn't think anything about those numbers were "decent". Dude's sales dropped by 50% and you consider yourself a superfan and you're online saying that after that his sales were "extremely decent". Again, your opinions are your own and you have a right to say whatever you want. Knock yourself out. But for those of us who were actually there, none of that means anything. But respect to you, my guy.

 

[Ziggiy]

You've been given plenty of facts. SD was literally pressed on all media, CD, vinyl and cassette. And sold 700 and change. You should do more homework. Not wikipedia. You're a Nas fan, I get it. So am I, but I'm not going to bore you or anyone else on here with my opinion. I'm also not going to get emotional or defensive over any of this. Everything I posted can be verified. Do your Googling and see for yourself.

Saying shyt like "Nas's sales were extremely decent" is literally your opinion. LOL!! I was there, Nas and Columbia didn't think anything about those numbers were "decent". Dude's sales dropped by 50% and you consider yourself a superfan and you're online saying that after that his sales were "extremely decent". Again, your opinions are your own and you have a right to say whatever you want. Knock yourself out. But for those of us who were actually there, none of that means anything. But respect to you, my guy.

So...no facts.

 

[prophecypro]

You've been given plenty of facts. SD was literally pressed on all media, CD, vinyl and cassette. And sold 700 and change. You should do more homework. Not wikipedia. You're a Nas fan, I get it. So am I, but I'm not going to bore you or anyone else on here with my opinion. I'm also not going to get emotional or defensive over any of this. Everything I posted can be verified. Do your Googling and see for yourself.

Saying shyt like "Nas's sales were extremely decent" is literally your opinion. LOL!! I was there, Nas and Columbia didn't think anything about those numbers were "decent". Dude's sales dropped by 50% and you consider yourself a superfan and you're online saying that after that his sales were "extremely decent". Again, your opinions are your own and you have right to say whatever you want. Knock yourself out. But for those of us who were actually there, none of that means anything. But respect to you, my guy.

Anytime a guy goes from clearing a million plus with every album within a month to doing "only" above 750k after a few months (though I remember it hung around the chart for a bit) Im sure Nas and the label were dissapointed but I think in retrospect, this was also the year a lot of people's sales started (With it being evident in 06 and the debate about decline happening) it wasnt that bad. I remember on the SOHH boards it was a big talking point on what caused it.

I do think it definetly motivated him to look at getting off the label, cause how it was promoted along with how there was a dispute with how the album would come out (I remember in spring/summer 2004 I had heard from people he wasnt in agreemnt with how the album was to be. Even going back and forth on it being a double album and he recorded it again. ) probably motivated the Def Jam/Sony deal cause the press on that put an emphasis on them doing the marketing (Ironically this was when Def Jam went weird with how promoted stuff, remember the Roots got no promo and well we all know how that went)

 

[Awesome Wells]

So...no facts.

Those are the facts.

I’ve seen mad people point this out to you. You’re being selective with your sources, that aren’t even specific to Nas. As other people have told you repeatedly, the album shipped a million. Shipping a million is what gets you a certification sometimes. But the album actually sold around 700. That can also be found online quickly too, with some “decent” Googling.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Anytime a guy goes from clearing a million plus with every album within a month to doing "only" above 750k after a few months (though I remember it hung around the chart for a bit) Im sure Nas and the label were dissapointed but I think in retrospect, this was also the year a lot of people's sales started (With it being evident in 06 and the debate about decline happening) it wasnt that bad. I remember on the SOHH boards it was a big talking point on what caused it.

I do think it definetly motivated him to look at getting off the label, cause how it was promoted along with how there was a dispute with how the album would come out (I remember in spring/summer 2004 I had heard from people he wasnt in agreemnt with how the album was to be. Even going back and forth on it being a double album and he recorded it again. ) probably motivated the Def Jam/Sony deal cause the press on that put an emphasis on them doing the marketing (Ironically this was when Def Jam went weird with how promoted stuff, remember the Roots got no promo and well we all know how that went)

You're right.

He was very vocal about the album not selling well, and felt Columbia didn't get behind it with promotion. But a lot of money was spent on the album, from recording to marketing and the production budget. So that's when the talks with Def Jam started. Nas didn't recoup the funds that were invested in SD, so they had to do a joint venture, where he would take less points, in order to recoup the losses from SD, in exchange for allowing him to also have a hand in starting his own vanity label which would be under both parent companies, for his next project.

But you're right, that's when he was moving everything over to Def Jam. But he still owed Columbia another album, before he could jump ship.

 

[Illmagic]

Nas is my GOAT but the reality is he doesent have the number of gigantic hits that the 3 guys he's often in competion with for GOAT. ( Jay, BIG and Pac) Nas would get washed in a vs with Jay z. Not cause he couldnt play better songs but Jay simply has more huge iconic songs from a mainstream perspective. Alot of the ones Nas had are not looked back on fondly. (You Owe me, Ochie Wally) I dont think Nas is over looked but I do think thats why alot of folks may have him in 4th place behind those guys. And BTW theres no shame in being behind those names.

 

[prophecypro]

True, I can see that.

He said after his moms got sick, that he started writing "different kinds of shyt". So I think there was a serious shift for him around that time, and the direction he was going in kinda alienated a lot of his old fans because that's right when the sales dropped. He said he was making music for himself, so he didn't care about how it was received. This was when he started selling less. That could also be due to the "Ether" hype dying down too though. But a lot of Hip Hop artists at his level were still selling a ton of records around this time. Nas was declining sales-wise before the industry took the hit later on.

I don’t know about any gatekeeping. I just know that a lot of people post about things they don’t really support. You can see it in the sales. Nas and GFK both spoke on it. New fans don’t buy albums as much as OG fans. The OG fans were buying every damn album these dudes dropped. And like Ghost said, "People come up to me all the time saying how they're a fan of mine now, but I don’t see that same love when my album drops. If you just became a fan, don’t tell me about it, go buy that album."

I dont know for sure if he took a hit as bas as some have said with SD, the weird thing was after SD, the sales of HHID though not platinum (I think it tapped out on 800k) was seen as a win (even though it may have only done like a 100k more than SD). He was definetly in a good space to still do a strong gold especially given this was also when people felt New York was dying.

Honestly if he just dropped more mixtapes like offical albums which was the in thing and literally kept his albums the same, people wouldnt have complained but I think because he kinda gave the impression he was above street stuff, that audience probably went cold on him. At the same time, like I said he was still selling okay and getting acclaim and I think there was still some older fans who hung with him and the new ones who came in post Stillmatic.

I just dont think dimissing the new fans from the OG ones or thinking they were both in seperate camps with the rest of his album

But maybe thats why people still debate about Nas consistency to this day and Im talking outside of this board cause I get the slant here is what it is. But I see on twitter, clubhouse and reddit all the time.

 

[Awesome Wells]

I dont know for sure if he took a hit as bas as some have said with SD, the weird thing was after SD, the sales of HHID though not platinum (I think it tapped out on 800k) was seen as a win. He was definetly in a good space to still do a strong gold especially given this was also when people felt New York was dying.

Honestly if he just dropped more mixtapes like offical albums which was the in thing and literally kept his albums the same, people wouldnt have complained but I think because he kinda gave the impression he was above street stuff, that audience probably went cold on him. At the same time, like I said he was still selling okay and getting acclaim and I think there was still some older fans who hung with him and the new ones who came in post Stillmatic.

I just dont think dimissing the new fans from the OG ones or thinking they were both in seperate camps with the rest of his album

But maybe thats why people still debate about Nas consistency to this day and Im talking outside of this board cause I get the slant here is what it is. But I see on twitter, clubhouse and reddit all the time.

He had much better campaigns for HHID.

And he had the power of two separate labels who were equally invested in the project. SD wasn't really pushed the way most albums should've been, especially if it's a double. His first week for HHID was better than his first for God's Son, and this was years later, even though the album sold a little less. Def Jam helped a lot with being able to get Nas back on screens and in publications again with much larger campaigns.

I agree that maybe the audience went cold on him. He was still selling okay, but you never knew who was going to come out and support him. It would drop off from album to album. And they really didn't focus on singles for Nas like they did for most MC's back then.