Penny Hardaway is the most talented PG of all-time...

[ISO]

Gilbert was good but he was never on that top tier as a player. His game was effective but kind of limited. I think he's a guy who would be more highly thought of in this era that is more about specialization (i.e. 3-point shooting) than all-around skill.

Arenas is one of the most skilled and strongest point guards ever.

The gun shyt and short prime got y’all forgetting.

 

[Swagnificent]

Come on man. Penny was a very good player for a couple of years but thats about it. Tmac was also a very good player for a few years but just because they were very good players for a few years doesn't make them the most talented ever.

Also as for Penny being a better scorer than Magic I may agree only because scoring was never Magic focus. Having said that Penny highest ppg was 21.7, Magic highest ppg was 23.9. But lets be clear Penny in no circumstance is any where in the same breath as Magic. Magic knew how to make plays as a rookie than Penny to this day still probably wouldn't know how to make. That is a lot more to basketball than grabbing the ball and trying to go one on one.

Lemme guess. You're white?

I'm sorry but I can't help you. If you can't see something as obvious as Penny being a better scorer than Magic then you'll never understand anything about this sport.

Just watch this:



Who in the history of the game has ever done this before?

Ya'll know Kobe is my favorite player ever but even he doesn't have a signature move this smooth.

Penny Hardaway is as nice as anyone who ever picked up a basketball. The only people who would question that are folks that don't understand this game.

 

[Swagnificent]

Arenas is one of the most skilled and strongest point guards ever.

The gun shyt and short prime got y’all forgetting.

Arenas didn't really have the best handle or passing insticts. He was a decent athlete but not special. He was a great shooter who could use a few dribble moves to create space for his patent stepback jumper. I'd say he was kind of the 2000s version of James Harden. Good player but not really that great.

Just because you have a few really effective moves doesn't make you all-time great in terms of talent. Being an all-time talent requires you to be a good at EVERYTHING and have zero flaws. Guys like Arenas and Harden have flaws in their games. Penny didn't.

 

[Remote]

Just as you can't feel the rhythm in music, you cacs can't see the genius in real hoopers.

Doesn't surprise me. I've yet to meet a cac with solid basketball takes.

You think anyone who disagrees with you is white
Pathetic.

 

[Swagnificent]

Stop saying this stupid ass shyt...

I don't know a single poster that frequently posts who bases their basketball opinions off of stats, yet you stay saying this generic shyt. Everybody uses stats to support their viewpoint at different times: people bring up Mike's scoring bursts and averages....LeBron's runs and averages...Kareem's All-Time scoring record and scoring titles....Magic's assist numbers....Wilt's scoring bursts and averages...etc etc etc...

In discussion about sports, talking about the numbers is bound to happen...

But who is the poster who frames their basketball opinions based on stat lines? I don't know anyone here who does that, everybody speaks of players with nuance and context. The only problem arises when some dudes get tight when their view can't be supported in numbers, so they go on a coordinated effort to undervalue data to overvalue other shyt that isn't as easily measured. But no one here, not frequent posters anyway, frame their perspectives on numbers. Everybody here uses the numbers to add context to their views at some point or other...

As for me, I use video I can find as well as data to learn about guys I never saw. This is no different than you "watching the tape" to learn about guys you didn't see as well, it's all learning about guys you didn't watch. You didn't see Magic, and you're not really of an age where you saw Penny (before the drop off) with clarity. So you talk about "tape" to contextualize your perspective, which is fine, no one begrudges you for that. So you can never really say who would be better than Magic, you never saw him play...

Penny was average to washed when I saw him, so I have no real remembrance of what position he played, though I don't recall ever looking at him in the same light as the points of the early/mid 00s (Billups, Kidd, Parker, Payton, etc). So looking him up as listed helps me envision what position he played...

Whatever position your team has you play year over year defines position. Most players, especially today, have overlapping skillsets and can play multiple positions, most guys have played multiple positions depending on matchup and circumstances. Saying the way a guy plays defines position is stupid if that isn't where his team lined him up at...

You really like posting these long messages huh? Brevity is your friend. You didn't need all them words to say your peace.

With that said, if you want to know a poster who bases his opinions on stats look no further than your new buddy @Rhakim whose posts you keep dapping. He has a long history on this site of bombarding folks with pages full of stats to back up his opinions.

You say stats have their place in sports dialougue. I say they are totally uneccesary. Just think of it like this. Lets say we both watch a game in its entirety. We watch every play. We see everything in context. Do we need to look at the box score afterwards to get an idea of who the best players on the court were? Obviously no. We just watched the entire game.

Stats are imperfect information. They are only valuable when you don't have any other information. If neither one of us watched the entire game then the box score would be valuable information for us. But if we both watched the entire game and understand the sport then the box score doesn't add anything to our understanding of what happened in the game. We were able to use our eyes to gather more information in exactly how those stats were accumulated.

This is why I always say the EYE TEST is superior to stats and analytics. If I have watched a game or player extensively then I have ZERO use for stats. Zero.

 

[Swagnificent]

Shaun Livingston is the most talented ive seen, imo

Nah. Even before the injuries he wasn't that nice. Really good player? Sure. Transcendant like Penny? Nah.

 

[Swagnificent]

It'd be a lot easier for you guys to just admit you don't like Stephen Curry than to continue to disrespect his greatness like this.

And no he's not an undersized shooting guard. He's just a point guard who is also the best shooter ever. Why are ya'll taking away from him because he's better at shooting than passing? Doesn't mean he isn't a good passer or that he ain't a PG.

Annoying.

I watched him in big playoff games look like trash. That's not disrespect. Its the truth. He's a gimmick player. His shyt works in the regular season and against overmatched teams. But in high leverage moments like clutch playoff games he's trash.

He's clearly the most overrated player in NBA history.

 

[Swagnificent]

You never watched Penny play when he was younger and played point.

You've seen highlights vids

You have no context for what you're watching in those videos

You do know there are full NBA games on YouTube covering that part of Penny's career. There's nothing I love more than watching 90s basketball games in their entirety on YouTube. That's been my #1 hobby during this quarantine with no live sports going on.

I have watched full games from the Magic's 1995 Finals run as well as the 1996 series against the Bulls. So I know exactly the type of player Penny was. Context and all.

shyt. Watching these older games is one of the reasons I don't care if the NBA season starts again. This era of NBA basketball is disgusting to watch compared to Penny's era.

 

[Swagnificent]

You think anyone who disagrees with you is white
Pathetic.

At the very least you are non-black. Your posting style and views are clearly evidence of that.

From my experience there is a difference between how black folks talk about sports and the way non-black folks talk about sports (as with everything else in life). I can typically spot it quick in threads like this. If you see a deep analysis of skills in a post then that poster is most likely black. If you see a lot of reliance on stats then you're most likely dealing with someone who is non-black.

Its sorta like how music of white origin like classical music has very precise structure when it comes to composition while music of black origin like Jazz is more freestyle and rhythm based. White musicians had to be told how to stay on beat in their music while we intuivately knew how to stay on beat. It is what it is.

 

[HabitualChiller]

Actually it is. If LeBron was 6'3" instead of 6'8" he wouldn't be half as good as he is right now. Height is part of your talent in a game like basketball where being taller is advantageous.

You don't think Durant's height and length are part of his talent?

6'3 LeBron would be a taller Chris Paul with better durability, and a better clutch performer. So he'd pretty much be the same.

 

[Swagnificent]

6'3 LeBron would be a taller Chris Paul with better durability, and a better clutch performer. So he'd pretty much be the same.

No. One of LeBron biggest strengths is his physicality to finish through contact. While less size his effectiveness finishing near the basket diminishes greatly. This would force him to be more of a jump shooter which isn't his strong suit.

Same thing with Durant. Make him 6'6" instead of 6'10" and that shooting efficiency decreases significantly cause he can't just shoot over every defender anymore.

Size matters in the NBA. To act like it doesn't make a huge difference in how good a player can be is to deny reality.

 

[god shamgod]

Some point after Shaq left they were gassing up Penny moving to the 2 guard ("his more natural position" they said) with Chuck Daly as the coach, pundits talkin bout Penny about to unlock ultra instinct and dominate the league...

He was an aight ass nygga. Injuries.. glorified 1st round L to Miami... then more injuries... Darrel Armstrong was lowkey that nygga... but then Penny had no excuses in '99. Completely "healthy", played all 50 games, averaged 38 mpg, Magic went 33-17, enough for the 3rd seed... but proceeded to get dog walked by a young Iverson and a nobody ass 6th seed Sixer team... ol george lynch larry hughes ass nyggas. with Penny averaging a whoppin 19ppg on 35% as Orlando got bounced 3 games to 1 (best of 5). Mind you, his season average was 16, 5, and 5. The definition of an aight ass nygga.

Penny was my favorite player in the 90s but my disgust after that Sixers series Us fans been waiting since fall 1996 for "Ultra Instinct". PG, SG, whatever my nygga. The mystic was gone.

In retrospect, I guess Grant Hill won that battle of which young star was greater

penny was never the same after the micro fracture surgery(he had 4-5 surgeries on that knee)that ‘99 magic team overachieved. Dude had a cartilage joint injury that mri’s 22 years ago couldn’t detect which is why His knee injury was the end of him.basically the ‘97 playoffs when he dropped 41-42-35 on Miami was the real end of Penny Hardaway as we knew him ,after that it was high expectations but an athletically diminishing player. He still had flashes and good games but he was never the same

 

[Box Factory]

You do know there are full NBA games on YouTube covering that part of Penny's career. There's nothing I love more than watching 90s basketball games in their entirety on YouTube. That's been my #1 hobby during this quarantine with no live sports going on.

I have watched full games from the Magic's 1995 Finals run as well as the 1996 series against the Bulls. So I know exactly the type of player Penny was. Context and all.

shyt. Watching these older games is one of the reasons I don't care if the NBA season starts again. This era of NBA basketball is disgusting to watch compared to Penny's era.

Watching a random game here or there doesn't give you enough context


You're out of your depth and are fantastically wrong. Probably because you don't understand or have a basis for what you're trying to argue

 

[Greenhornet]

Steph hardly brings the ball up?

Stop with the “pure” PG shyt don’t pigeonhole the position

Magic’s handle was wack he used his wide base to protect the ball would often bring up the ball posting up, didn’t change directions well, Bulls had Scottie Pippen full court pressuring his ass.

When I think of handles Magic is nowhere near the top.

thats because you dont play basketball and are obviously in your 20s
you have trash opinion in every thread but unlike other trash takes you ride super hard for yours

I can go back and quote your shyt about Steph, saying he's mastered shooting and creating a shot off dribble

The most talented PG ever is the one that can shoot from 30 feet and got the ball on a string.

you are literally describing a shooting guard


then how fukking stupid do you have to be to say "dont pigeonhole the position"

then immediately argue on what defines a position my nikka you are on the autism spectrum ... you probably pay that 75$ cable bill and think its for your disability insurance. Steph didnt see crazy sucess until he switched off ball, like you said in the quote I posted... if you are defining players but where they are put...instead of how they play... then PJ tucker is now the most dynamic Center of all time. Might as well call MJ the greatest point guard of all time, since he brought the ball up and established the offense. Do you even know why Steph plays off ball besides the benefit of running off screens with Klay? you do realize he's offset more as a 2 guard to conserve energy beyond just being more dangerous... similar to AI. Everyone named in this thread besides those 2 ... where one dude is literally labeled a SG... plays a completely different style for a reason. Jkidd, Rose, Jason Williams, Cp3, Nash, Kyrie, Tony Parker, Lillard etc all literally play PG. Half of the Warriors playbook is handoffs, pindowns, double screens, flares etc with steph running off them ............like you said...... as a fukking off ball shooter with "the ball on a string" you are clearly the worst poster on this site, you dont even think Magic has handle you should have died at birth and took your funky ass mother with you

 

[Rigby.]

What years?

The Houston choke year he was playing on a bum leg all offs and 2018