CEITEDMOFO
Banned
After all these years, are the fundamentals the same when Wu-Tang hit the studio?
The process of making music has changed a lot. The industry has changed, it’s shrunken, and the music has become less tangible and less physical into something more digital. But we appreciate those things in some ways, in other ways we don’t appreciate them. On this record, sonically through my production, we used the history of music. I went back to the studio that was used in the ‘60s by Al Green, Little Richard. Some of the guitars used were 50, 60, 70 years old. The drum kit was 50 years old. Then we starting recording to a two-inch tape Sony recorder from the ‘70s, and moved on to a ’80s recorder, then a ‘90s model. Then by the time the record was done, I was using Ableton 9. We went from the foundation of music, using a simple Coca Cola box that was used on [Al Green’s] ’Love And Happiness’, and went all the way to using the most amazing recording programs – Ableton is incredible, Pro Tools and all those things. You can hear all that on the record, especially on ‘Ruckus In B Minor’, where Rick Rubin came in and gave me some help. A lot of elements were used to make this record, and that’s the way we make music.
That collaboration with Rick isn’t surprising, but it is surprising that it’s taken so long for you to join forces, considering your respective standings in the history of hip-hop.
I met Rick some years ago, he was working with System Of A Down, and those guys are my buddies. I’ve seen Rick many times in my life, we always shake hands and laugh, but we’ve never worked together. When I was working on ‘Ruckus In B Minor’, I came to what I consider a producer brainfreeze. That was one of the first songs I wrote for the record, I was exhausted when it came to COMPLETING
it. I thought, ‘You know, I’ve never worked with Rick before. I’m gonna call him up and see if he’s interested in finally crossing that bridge together.’ We consider each other friends, we have all these friends in common, The Black Keys, System Of A Down, and he was like “Yo, how come we’ve never worked together?” So I said here’s the opportunity.
He did it for the history of it, bringing up our history as producers and as hip-hop guys. I pointed out to Rick, that people contend hip-hop is a strictly black form of music that started in the ghetto. But in the early stages of hip-hop, in its development, Rick Rubin was there – that’s a white kid. Then there was Charlie Chase, a Latino kid. Me and Rick had this talk in the late ‘90s, hip-hop is American music. That’s the way we should look at it. It was a sound of that generation of America. Rick’s an icon in this, working with Run DMC, Beastie Boys, LL Cool J. It was good to get that history. Another circle of hip-hop is Wu-Tang, and to finally bring all that together, I’m glad we did it.
On ‘Ruckus In B Minor’ you say “Rae, all those bad times is behind us”. Overcoming your differences with Raekwon, was that the biggest challenge in recording a new Wu album?
It definitely was a challenge with him. It’s still a challenge with him. The funny thing about Wu-Tang is, we’re a real family. It’s like, this brother, we’re cool, we go to the movies, but our other brother can’t come. Wu-Tang is a very unique dynamic, a lot of personalities. It’s not personalities of a bunch of brats, of a bunch of kids, of a bunch of nobodies. These are personalities of a bunch of stars. Guys who, if we never see each other again, will have a life, will have success, have opportunities one way or another. To get everybody to come together and stay in sync is getting more challenging as we get older. There is always a time when one of the brothers say “Look, I’m a grown-ass man, you need to consider my opinion when we’re doing things”, and I understand that. But at the same time, knowing everybody’s personality, one thing that The RZA does is look at things in terms of Wu-Tang all day, every day. Wu-Tang, that’s what I’m thinking about.
You look at all my interviews in the past, you do not hear me trying to sell myself. My movies when I’ve got them already in the can, my albums, I don’t talk about none of that shyt, I talk about Wu-Tang. I wake up in the morning and miss deadlines on other projects because I’m doing Wu-Tang. When all the other guys leave the studio at two in the morning, I’m there till four in the morning. They take a day off, I’m there doing my thing. Because of that, you have respect me as the guy who is driving the ship. Because when the captain is driving the ship, the passengers can sleep at any time when he can’t, he has to keep driving. That’s the personality that forces me to say “I got to do it this way.” If everybody leaves today and the executive decision has to be made today, I can’t wait for everybody to come back tomorrow. I gotta make that decision today. And if they weren’t there to vote that day then they gotta live with that decision. That’s the reality I was facing on some of these projects.
Is that a big part of why Wu-Tang is still here? That control you have? You’re producing 90% of the tracks yourself, even in the era post- Illmatic where hip-hop records, more often than not, feature a range of producers behind the desk.
My knowledge is, you go to a grocery store, and you got all these types of food. You got different kinds of meats, all these kinds of vegetables. Wu-Tang could be considered spinach. A lot of kids don’t want spinach as they get older. But I’m gonna be spinach. Spinach is good for you. You can’t get it everywhere, you gotta get it from that particular lane. That’s where we are. You look at some of the production brought in by the other producers, Mathematics, Cilvaringz, 4th Disciple, they grew to this level, and they give me a song and let me do what I want with it.
In hip-hop, a producer is considered whoever makes the beat, but it’s more than that. I don’t say that egotistically. You have a song that Math did or a song that 4th did, they bring the beat in, SPEND
a day in the studio, but the song takes five to ten days to make. Who’s there making sure the song will have a cohesiveness with everything else. That’s what I’m willing to do. So when the fan gets it they feels that cohesiveness. It needs to stand as a work of art. Whether they agree or disagree with it or likes it or dislikes it, it still stands as a piece of art in itself, not a collage of diamond, gold, silver, onyx, from all around the industry trying to make something. That holds a value for Wu-Tang.
The flipside of that from your perspective is working with Kanye on My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, and then later on Yeezus, alongside a lofty roster of producers contributing to Kanye’s vision.
Kanye, as we all know, he is a genius in his world, and a genius of music. A guy like that, who I respect, when he reached out to me to come in and give whatever he wanted me to add to his creation, I took heed. He actually called me at a time when I thought that one of the biggest problems in the hip-hop community is our individuality towards each other. You think of the greats of rock ‘n’ roll, how many of us know that Eric Clapton played on ‘While My Guitar Gently Weeps’? How many guys know that Slash played on Michael Jackson’s Dangerous album? These great licks that we love are by someone not part of the initial family. Hip-hop is such an egotistical form of music, it’s kind of stayed away from that.
Kanye doesn’t need help to make a record. He can make classic records by himself. When he did reach out to me, I felt compelled for a multitude of reasons to go see what kind of energy I could add. I remember sitting down talking to Kanye saying, “Look, I don’t care if you use any of my beats or my music or whatever, the most important thing I want you to use from me is the time that I’m sharing with you. I’m going to sit here for a couple of weeks and be at your service. You can ask me anything.” We had a lot of conversations and shyt, listening to Liquid Swords and just kicking it. It’s healthy for him, I’m ten years older than Kanye. He gets the chance to see what kind of man he could potentially develop into. I’m a guy who’s made a lot of success, made a lot of money from hip-hop, but also had a lot of tragedy. I’m ahead of him, and it’s always smart for somebody to pay attention to what’s in front on them, because that’s a map for you. This is why I read old books on the holy prophets – they’ve lived already, they’ve already seen volcano eruptions and things that we go “oooh what’s goin’ on?” I’ve read about that already: Pompeii. It’s not new, just new in our time. Knowing the pattern of things, you can be on a better path.
Let’s talk about Once Upon A Time In Shaolin. It’s a headline-grabbing project, still shrouded in mystery. What can you tell us? Is there a buyer? Will it be toured globally in museums?
I want to say, for now, it’s going to remain a mystery. But that mystery will unfold.
The concept itself is an extreme statement on the current perceived value of music.
It’s everything to do with music right now. Everyone in their day spends at least ten percent of their time listening to music. That could be in a movie, watching TV, in an elevator. It exists all around us. We enjoy it. It’s a part of life, a very important part of life. It’s very unwise of us, for us as consumers of electronic products – whether we’re buying our PHONES
for a few hundred bucks, headphones for 200, 300 bucks – all these things that can be useless without the music. What is a pair of headphones without music? It’s garbage. So why would you pay 200 bucks for the headphones, but not pay ten dollars for the music that comes through it. That’s a total, total miscalculation. It takes more to make to music than to make the headphones. For this Wu album, it’s hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. To make the headphones, which I’ve made, they may cost a hundred thousand to design it, that’s it. So here we are, with something that takes a lot of time and a lot of people, a recording of history, spirit and emotion. It’s what makes your PHONE
better. You want people to make new music, you need to pay for it. You think there’s already enough music in the world? You can take that argument and let that be. But music also reflects a time. Today’s 21-year-old girl is different to a 21-year-old Dolly Parton, know what I mean? If she doesn’t get a budget to do it, then that voice won’t be heard.
Once Upon A Time In Shaolin is a statement on that, but it’s not a solution. Are you looking at other ways the industry can change?
One thing we did was release a Bluetooth speaker with the album [ A Better Tomorrow ] embedded. It can do everything a Bluetooth speaker can do, but as soon as you open a box, you can hit a button twice and you get the music immediately. You don’t have to DOWNLOAD
it, have Wi-Fi. As soon as you have this thing out of the box you have the music in your hands. You can clip it to your belt, take it to the mountains. It’s been very successful, we did 5,000 units as a test run, and a few more runs coming in January. The two things I like about this idea is one: it makes music tangible. And two: the store we are selling it is Zumiez. Zumiez is not a music store, it sells skateboards, shoes, jackets. But now a music lover can find another place to shop at. For the music industry, all the record stores are closing down. There’s this opportunity here that we can have physical products in a different outlet. Someone can come in looking at a skateboard, and look over on the side and there’s a rack of different albums, it’s a different thing. It’s an experiment now, but it has a nice ring to it.
To put it simply, touring is where the MONEY
currently is for artists. Are you looking into touring A Better Tomorrow ?
We’re starving to have some tours. That’s also another thing, Live Nation and Warner Brothers have teamed up on Wu-Tang’s behalf, they’re gonna release a bundle package for the fans. I don’t know how many years left, lord willing, there will be of concerts. Someone came to me the other day asking if they can SCAN
me for a fukking hologram, and I was like “Nah, I ain’t going for that. You won’t be scanning me.” I’m on the planet, do that when I leave the planet. It’s this thing in the future, will the audience be satisfied in the future with holograms? And they will, there will be a point where it will be okay. Maybe one day it will be okay to sit there and watch a hologram. I see the Michael Jackson holograms, I do enjoy those shows, I cannot deny that. But if I had a chance to feel the sweat from the artists in the crowd, that’s much better than a hologram. The concerts are one of the last things we got to get that pure energy of our vision.
The process of making music has changed a lot. The industry has changed, it’s shrunken, and the music has become less tangible and less physical into something more digital. But we appreciate those things in some ways, in other ways we don’t appreciate them. On this record, sonically through my production, we used the history of music. I went back to the studio that was used in the ‘60s by Al Green, Little Richard. Some of the guitars used were 50, 60, 70 years old. The drum kit was 50 years old. Then we starting recording to a two-inch tape Sony recorder from the ‘70s, and moved on to a ’80s recorder, then a ‘90s model. Then by the time the record was done, I was using Ableton 9. We went from the foundation of music, using a simple Coca Cola box that was used on [Al Green’s] ’Love And Happiness’, and went all the way to using the most amazing recording programs – Ableton is incredible, Pro Tools and all those things. You can hear all that on the record, especially on ‘Ruckus In B Minor’, where Rick Rubin came in and gave me some help. A lot of elements were used to make this record, and that’s the way we make music.
That collaboration with Rick isn’t surprising, but it is surprising that it’s taken so long for you to join forces, considering your respective standings in the history of hip-hop.
I met Rick some years ago, he was working with System Of A Down, and those guys are my buddies. I’ve seen Rick many times in my life, we always shake hands and laugh, but we’ve never worked together. When I was working on ‘Ruckus In B Minor’, I came to what I consider a producer brainfreeze. That was one of the first songs I wrote for the record, I was exhausted when it came to COMPLETING
it. I thought, ‘You know, I’ve never worked with Rick before. I’m gonna call him up and see if he’s interested in finally crossing that bridge together.’ We consider each other friends, we have all these friends in common, The Black Keys, System Of A Down, and he was like “Yo, how come we’ve never worked together?” So I said here’s the opportunity.He did it for the history of it, bringing up our history as producers and as hip-hop guys. I pointed out to Rick, that people contend hip-hop is a strictly black form of music that started in the ghetto. But in the early stages of hip-hop, in its development, Rick Rubin was there – that’s a white kid. Then there was Charlie Chase, a Latino kid. Me and Rick had this talk in the late ‘90s, hip-hop is American music. That’s the way we should look at it. It was a sound of that generation of America. Rick’s an icon in this, working with Run DMC, Beastie Boys, LL Cool J. It was good to get that history. Another circle of hip-hop is Wu-Tang, and to finally bring all that together, I’m glad we did it.
On ‘Ruckus In B Minor’ you say “Rae, all those bad times is behind us”. Overcoming your differences with Raekwon, was that the biggest challenge in recording a new Wu album?
It definitely was a challenge with him. It’s still a challenge with him. The funny thing about Wu-Tang is, we’re a real family. It’s like, this brother, we’re cool, we go to the movies, but our other brother can’t come. Wu-Tang is a very unique dynamic, a lot of personalities. It’s not personalities of a bunch of brats, of a bunch of kids, of a bunch of nobodies. These are personalities of a bunch of stars. Guys who, if we never see each other again, will have a life, will have success, have opportunities one way or another. To get everybody to come together and stay in sync is getting more challenging as we get older. There is always a time when one of the brothers say “Look, I’m a grown-ass man, you need to consider my opinion when we’re doing things”, and I understand that. But at the same time, knowing everybody’s personality, one thing that The RZA does is look at things in terms of Wu-Tang all day, every day. Wu-Tang, that’s what I’m thinking about.
You look at all my interviews in the past, you do not hear me trying to sell myself. My movies when I’ve got them already in the can, my albums, I don’t talk about none of that shyt, I talk about Wu-Tang. I wake up in the morning and miss deadlines on other projects because I’m doing Wu-Tang. When all the other guys leave the studio at two in the morning, I’m there till four in the morning. They take a day off, I’m there doing my thing. Because of that, you have respect me as the guy who is driving the ship. Because when the captain is driving the ship, the passengers can sleep at any time when he can’t, he has to keep driving. That’s the personality that forces me to say “I got to do it this way.” If everybody leaves today and the executive decision has to be made today, I can’t wait for everybody to come back tomorrow. I gotta make that decision today. And if they weren’t there to vote that day then they gotta live with that decision. That’s the reality I was facing on some of these projects.
Is that a big part of why Wu-Tang is still here? That control you have? You’re producing 90% of the tracks yourself, even in the era post- Illmatic where hip-hop records, more often than not, feature a range of producers behind the desk.
My knowledge is, you go to a grocery store, and you got all these types of food. You got different kinds of meats, all these kinds of vegetables. Wu-Tang could be considered spinach. A lot of kids don’t want spinach as they get older. But I’m gonna be spinach. Spinach is good for you. You can’t get it everywhere, you gotta get it from that particular lane. That’s where we are. You look at some of the production brought in by the other producers, Mathematics, Cilvaringz, 4th Disciple, they grew to this level, and they give me a song and let me do what I want with it.
In hip-hop, a producer is considered whoever makes the beat, but it’s more than that. I don’t say that egotistically. You have a song that Math did or a song that 4th did, they bring the beat in, SPEND
a day in the studio, but the song takes five to ten days to make. Who’s there making sure the song will have a cohesiveness with everything else. That’s what I’m willing to do. So when the fan gets it they feels that cohesiveness. It needs to stand as a work of art. Whether they agree or disagree with it or likes it or dislikes it, it still stands as a piece of art in itself, not a collage of diamond, gold, silver, onyx, from all around the industry trying to make something. That holds a value for Wu-Tang.The flipside of that from your perspective is working with Kanye on My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, and then later on Yeezus, alongside a lofty roster of producers contributing to Kanye’s vision.
Kanye, as we all know, he is a genius in his world, and a genius of music. A guy like that, who I respect, when he reached out to me to come in and give whatever he wanted me to add to his creation, I took heed. He actually called me at a time when I thought that one of the biggest problems in the hip-hop community is our individuality towards each other. You think of the greats of rock ‘n’ roll, how many of us know that Eric Clapton played on ‘While My Guitar Gently Weeps’? How many guys know that Slash played on Michael Jackson’s Dangerous album? These great licks that we love are by someone not part of the initial family. Hip-hop is such an egotistical form of music, it’s kind of stayed away from that.
Kanye doesn’t need help to make a record. He can make classic records by himself. When he did reach out to me, I felt compelled for a multitude of reasons to go see what kind of energy I could add. I remember sitting down talking to Kanye saying, “Look, I don’t care if you use any of my beats or my music or whatever, the most important thing I want you to use from me is the time that I’m sharing with you. I’m going to sit here for a couple of weeks and be at your service. You can ask me anything.” We had a lot of conversations and shyt, listening to Liquid Swords and just kicking it. It’s healthy for him, I’m ten years older than Kanye. He gets the chance to see what kind of man he could potentially develop into. I’m a guy who’s made a lot of success, made a lot of money from hip-hop, but also had a lot of tragedy. I’m ahead of him, and it’s always smart for somebody to pay attention to what’s in front on them, because that’s a map for you. This is why I read old books on the holy prophets – they’ve lived already, they’ve already seen volcano eruptions and things that we go “oooh what’s goin’ on?” I’ve read about that already: Pompeii. It’s not new, just new in our time. Knowing the pattern of things, you can be on a better path.
Let’s talk about Once Upon A Time In Shaolin. It’s a headline-grabbing project, still shrouded in mystery. What can you tell us? Is there a buyer? Will it be toured globally in museums?
I want to say, for now, it’s going to remain a mystery. But that mystery will unfold.
The concept itself is an extreme statement on the current perceived value of music.
It’s everything to do with music right now. Everyone in their day spends at least ten percent of their time listening to music. That could be in a movie, watching TV, in an elevator. It exists all around us. We enjoy it. It’s a part of life, a very important part of life. It’s very unwise of us, for us as consumers of electronic products – whether we’re buying our PHONES
for a few hundred bucks, headphones for 200, 300 bucks – all these things that can be useless without the music. What is a pair of headphones without music? It’s garbage. So why would you pay 200 bucks for the headphones, but not pay ten dollars for the music that comes through it. That’s a total, total miscalculation. It takes more to make to music than to make the headphones. For this Wu album, it’s hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. To make the headphones, which I’ve made, they may cost a hundred thousand to design it, that’s it. So here we are, with something that takes a lot of time and a lot of people, a recording of history, spirit and emotion. It’s what makes your PHONE
better. You want people to make new music, you need to pay for it. You think there’s already enough music in the world? You can take that argument and let that be. But music also reflects a time. Today’s 21-year-old girl is different to a 21-year-old Dolly Parton, know what I mean? If she doesn’t get a budget to do it, then that voice won’t be heard.Once Upon A Time In Shaolin is a statement on that, but it’s not a solution. Are you looking at other ways the industry can change?
One thing we did was release a Bluetooth speaker with the album [ A Better Tomorrow ] embedded. It can do everything a Bluetooth speaker can do, but as soon as you open a box, you can hit a button twice and you get the music immediately. You don’t have to DOWNLOAD
it, have Wi-Fi. As soon as you have this thing out of the box you have the music in your hands. You can clip it to your belt, take it to the mountains. It’s been very successful, we did 5,000 units as a test run, and a few more runs coming in January. The two things I like about this idea is one: it makes music tangible. And two: the store we are selling it is Zumiez. Zumiez is not a music store, it sells skateboards, shoes, jackets. But now a music lover can find another place to shop at. For the music industry, all the record stores are closing down. There’s this opportunity here that we can have physical products in a different outlet. Someone can come in looking at a skateboard, and look over on the side and there’s a rack of different albums, it’s a different thing. It’s an experiment now, but it has a nice ring to it.To put it simply, touring is where the MONEY
currently is for artists. Are you looking into touring A Better Tomorrow ?We’re starving to have some tours. That’s also another thing, Live Nation and Warner Brothers have teamed up on Wu-Tang’s behalf, they’re gonna release a bundle package for the fans. I don’t know how many years left, lord willing, there will be of concerts. Someone came to me the other day asking if they can SCAN
me for a fukking hologram, and I was like “Nah, I ain’t going for that. You won’t be scanning me.” I’m on the planet, do that when I leave the planet. It’s this thing in the future, will the audience be satisfied in the future with holograms? And they will, there will be a point where it will be okay. Maybe one day it will be okay to sit there and watch a hologram. I see the Michael Jackson holograms, I do enjoy those shows, I cannot deny that. But if I had a chance to feel the sweat from the artists in the crowd, that’s much better than a hologram. The concerts are one of the last things we got to get that pure energy of our vision.
