my take is this: Jacob says in his dream (before the birth of his children) that he saw a ladder that the angels of God were ascending and descending and that it was the gate of Heaven
i don't know where "dreams" are first described but that has to be one of the first
basically the insinuation is that your children are always on the other side of dreams. If not the idea of the pit of affliction would cause people to never believe
remember if you were Abraham and lets assume his descendants are like him. Would those descendants be happy if they always had the same exact story?
Remember in Exodus it desribes only the children of Israel specifically rather than the children of Jacob
consider if another major character changed his name. IE Saul
if Saul in the New Testament never goes by Paul, would his story always be linked to Saul in Kings/Chronicles etc dealing with Philistines.
So when the children and elders of Israel grumbled against Moses, God sent fiery serpents among them. What if you grumbled in your sleep? Would fiery serpents invade your dream?
There are two "miracles" that Science accepts as having happened, but cannot explain.
The so called big bang. An easy way to imagine it is one singularity exploding into the entire universe we have now. Seems unbelievable, actually. Another idea is that the big bang was not a single point but more of a cosmos wide happening. The results are essentially the same. Early universe full of only Hydrogen and quickly Helium. Formation of stars which clump into galaxies and create more complex elements inside the stars. And so forth.
The other is DNA. Self replicating super complex molecules. It happened once so far.. since all Earthling life forms are related to one biogenesis event. Seems like new strains of life would happen on Earth countless times if it could happen once.
Science takes these moments for granted but cannot explain how such things could happen.
And since the entire trajectory of creation of elements is toward greater complexity and the development of life is obviously a march toward greater complexity it seems that there is a .. plan.. of some sort. A design.
Call all that what you want but it's real. It's not Greek and Roman mythology. It's not Hindu mythology. It's not Abrahamic religion. Ancient people had an idea of spirituality but these rigid mythological and religious systems are just misguided relics.
basically the insinuation is that your children are always on the other side of dreams. If not the idea of the pit of affliction would cause people to never believe
what does this have to do with Jacob’s latter dream?
basically the insinuation is that your children are always on the other side of dreams. If not the idea of the pit of affliction would cause people to never believe
what does this have to do with Jacob’s latter dream?
An indepth look at the meaning and etymology of the awesome name Nebaioth. We'll discuss the original Hebrew, plus the words and names Nebaioth is related to, plus the occurences of this name in the Bible.
www.abarim-publications.com
Meaning
High Places
Seen, Regarded
Having Prophesied
when I read the Quran that is the insinuation is they have seen the high places and just list what will happen. So the affliction could be that context: the this will happen etc
and in Jacob's ladder he saw the angels of God traversing this ladder from heaven (and i interpret angel as messenger)
An indepth look at the meaning and etymology of the awesome name Nebaioth. We'll discuss the original Hebrew, plus the words and names Nebaioth is related to, plus the occurences of this name in the Bible.
www.abarim-publications.com
when I read the Quran that is the insinuation is they have seen the high places and just list what will happen. So the affliction could be that context: the this will happen etc
and in Jacob's ladder he saw the angels of God traversing this ladder from heaven (and i interpret angel as messenger)
I can see that interpretation. Having a child/children is a reoccurring theme of the Hebrew Bible
But I think I should probably read genesis and see what was going on regarding Jacob’s ladder and the meaning/context
But aside from that, you do know Muhammad has no provable linage to Ishmael (no in the Quran anyway) and “Arabs” aren’t necessarily Ishmaelites by blood or because any tribal affiliation or religious beliefs
Yea there was always “pagan” Arabs but there’s also plenty Arab Jews and Arab Christians (speaking Arabic, Arab culture having people in Arabia) well before Islam, Muslims or Muhammad ever existed
You can’t give Islam the benefit of doubt as having a connection to the Old Testament or god of Israel because THEY gave that identity to themselves after the fact
But as history has played out they’ve deceived the world in believing this, and created a new religion/prophet and book from it. It has succeeded so maybe it doesn’t matter. It’s part of prophecy one way or another…. But I guess the point is:
If you believe the stories Arabs created about themselves and their prophet why not believe what the NOI or Mormons say about Israel or the Jews?
Don’t stop there.
Go even further and believe the Hebrew Israelites teachings that THEY are the original Hebrews by blood
Everyone misinterprets the Bible and also tries to rewrite history to fit their narrative
Judaism and Christianity do not need Islam theologically or even as a final sequel to some sort of “trilogy” as Muslims might argue.
Prove Islam wrong and the other two religions aren’t affected at all other there will be tons of new former Muslim converts to Christianity (because they already regard Jesus as a prophet)
On the contrary,
Prove Judaism false and Christianity has no foundation
I can see that interpretation. Having a child/children is a reoccurring theme of the Hebrew Bible
But I think I should probably read genesis and see what was going on regarding Jacob’s ladder and the meaning/context
But aside from that, you do know Muhammad has no provable linage to Ishmael (no in the Quran anyway) and “Arabs” aren’t necessarily Ishmaelites by blood or because any tribal affiliation or religious beliefs
Yea there was always “pagan” Arabs but there’s also plenty Arab Jews and Arab Christians (speaking Arabic, Arab culture having people in Arabia) well before Islam, Muslims or Muhammad ever existed
You can’t give Islam the benefit of doubt as having a connection to the Old Testament or god of Israel because THEY gave that identity to themselves after the fact
But as history has played out they’ve deceived the world in believing this, and created a new religion/prophet and book from it. It has succeeded so maybe it doesn’t matter. It’s part of prophecy one way or another…. But I guess the point is:
If you believe the stories Arabs created about themselves and their prophet why not believe what the NOI or Mormons say about Israel or the Jews?
Don’t stop there.
Go even further and believe the Hebrew Israelites teachings that THEY are the original Hebrews by blood
Everyone misinterprets the Bible and also tries to rewrite history to fit their narrative
What if thats what the Canaanites did with the concept of Israelite?
What do you mean by this? I kinda know what you’re getting at but need it to be explained more
It’s not so much “how do I know who’s related by blood” but the fact that it can’t be proven and means essentially nothing in a theological sense
I remember a Jewish guy talking about how it makes no sense why “Arabs” or “pagan” non Jews in the 6th century would want to have some connection to Judaism or the Bible characters to the point they adopted a new “Ishmaelite” or Hagarite identity which they don’t need and can’t prove genealogically
What’s the point? To feel better about your identity or because they’re jealous of Jews?
Or maybe it was because the Jews classified them as “other” in the first place
It’s the same deal with blacks who convinced themselves they’re the “real Hebrews”
He replied, “O my dear son! Do not relate your vision to your brothers, or they will devise a plot against you. Surely Satan is a sworn enemy to human...
quran.com
why do you think this is Muhammad's revelation from Gabriel about Joseph (that his brothers collectively are Satan)
It’s not so much “how do I know who’s related by blood” but the fact that it can’t be proven and means essentially nothing in a theological sense
I remember a Jewish guy talking about how it makes no sense why “Arabs” or “pagan” non Jews in the 6th century would want to have some connection to Judaism or the Bible characters to the point they adopted a new “Ishmaelite” or Hagarite identity which they don’t need and can’t prove genealogically
What’s the point? To feel better about your identity or because they’re jealous of Jews?
youre thinking with a western point of view about an old world religion. the actual Muslims in the middle east couldnt be further from the NOI and Hebrew Israelite people. Those people have never contemplated the possibility that they are the creators of the old world
im not gonna explain how thats possible. But consider Jacob....say he got trapped in the Quranic narrative the Canaanite Temples in America could be ironic jumping points
Drew Ali reported that he met with a high priest of Egyptian magic during his travels. In one version of Drew Ali's biography, the leader saw him as a reincarnation of the founder. In others, he says that the priest considered him a reincarnation of Jesus, the Buddha, Muhammad, and other religious prophets. According to the biography, the high priest trained Ali in mysticism and gave him a "lost section" of the Quran.[9]
Read and listen to Surah Yusuf. The Surah was revealed in Mecca, ordered 12 in the Quran. The Surah title means "Joseph" in English and consists of 11...
He replied, “O my dear son! Do not relate your vision to your brothers, or they will devise a plot against you. Surely Satan is a sworn enemy to human...
quran.com
why do you think this is Muhammad's revelation from Gabriel about Joseph (that his brothers collectively are Satan)
given that the pagan arabs were all sorcerors they are basically insinuating that the narrative in the bible is in fact sorcery in their eyes
youre thinking with a western point of view about an old world religion. the actual Muslims in the middle east couldnt be further from the NOI and Hebrew Israelite people. Those people have never contemplated the possibility that they are the creators of the old world
im not gonna explain how thats possible. But consider Jacob....say he got trapped in the Quranic narrative the Canaanite Temples in America could be ironic jumping points
Read and listen to Surah Yusuf. The Surah was revealed in Mecca, ordered 12 in the Quran. The Surah title means "Joseph" in English and consists of 11...
I don’t think you understand the origins of Islam the same way I do historically or its development theologically but that’s a complex story so…. Tomato, Tomatoe I guess
I get what you mean about the cananites and Egyptians but I’ll just quote Jesus and say:
“you shall know them by their fruits”
And besides. The messiah was a Hebrew so that seals it.
Muhammad isn’t mentioned at all in the bible.
Islam would make more sense as a standalone religion (as would all the other spin off “cults” and faiths to claim Abrahamic origins or ties) but nothing 100% new and fake has any chance of success
Just like “Satan” quotes bible verses to deceive, he doesn’t create his own scripture because he knows it’s not believable.
Mind you, he just might even be working for God, am I right? @Koichos
I don’t think you understand the origins of Islam the same way I do historically or its development theologically but that’s a complex story so…. Tomato, Tomatoe I guess
I get what you mean about the cananites and Egyptians but I’ll just quote Jesus and say:
“you shall know them by their fruits”
And besides. The messiah was a Hebrew so that seals it.
Muhammad isn’t mentioned at all in the bible.
Islam would make more sense as a standalone religion (as would all the other spin off “cults” and faiths to claim Abrahamic origins or ties) but nothing 100% new and fake has any chance of success
Just like “Satan” quotes bible verses to deceive, he doesn’t create his own scripture because he knows it’s not believable.
Mind you, he just might even be working for God, am I right? @Koichos
what sort of source do you have for a statement like that?
just curious
i make it a point to not use the idea of "the tempter" "the adversary" "the enemy" etc in my lexicon for more than one reason
in Islam by comparison they make a great use of the term Satan and Iblis
IE the book of Job right, the name Job means reconciled combatant. So in essence the difference between Job and Satan is not as different as you'd immediately think (atleast in the english translation)
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