So you still got guys who think Kyrie better than Wall????

Bledswole

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I thought it was obvious that most people would take the point guard who can pass better, defend better and still score at a way above average clip over the point guard who can just score better

Considering how heated this debate is, I guess I was wrong :manny:

One thing I will co-sign is what @Gil Scott-Heroin said about Kyrie's ability to plat off ball. He works well with LeBron because of that, and I don't think Wall and Lebron would go right together.

Maybe it's because Kyrie isn't really a point guard, but mores so an undersized 2 :lupe:

Yea me too lol and dudes in here saying Wall defense isn't that great.

He first in steals in the league,leads all PG's in blocked shots,top 3 among PG's in defensive rating,and in iso situations,guys are only shooting 33% against him:mjlol:

Give me a guy that can play defense like that and give me 23,10,5 a night anyday:yeshrug:
 

Bilz

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Kyrie's advantage is that he is matched up with the best player in the game. Because of that, he can be called a championship pg. Trade Kyrie for Wall and Kyrie is nowhere near a championship.

Kyrie does complement LeBron better than Wall would because of his ISO scoring ability and hes a better pure shooter. But if you have a random team, Wall would be a much better choice as the PG and floor general.
 

Sin Simma

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As a facilitator, playmaker, and two way player, Wall is the superior player. As a scorer, shooter, playing off the ball, finisher, and creating with their handle, Kyrie is better. As talented and underrated Wall is, his game drops in the playoffs and we all seen what Kyrie did in the finals. Kyrie went from pariah in game 1 to superstar hype by the end of the series.

Kyrie is more of an off guard than actual PG, and this is the case now for these new school guards. IT is a off guard as well. Wall is a facilitator who could score, but doesn't get the credit because the league have a few superstar guards in front of him. It's like Dame with all of the talent and ability, always the last pick for the Olympics/All-Star game. Unless they have a MVP type season, people will overlook these 2.
 

OG Talk

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Wall is a better pure PG, Kyrie is a better combo guard.

They would actually make a great backcourt if they played together...

Kyrie is a more athletic version of Joe Dumars offensively. Wall is a more athletic version of Gary Payton..

Nobody ever compared Dumars to Payton just because they were short and Black. These debates are so lazy..
 
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I thought it was obvious that most people would take the point guard who can pass better, defend better and still score at a way above average clip over the point guard who can just score better
It's not as simple as that, especially given the fact that this is the first season where Wall has been scoring at that clip. I mean Kyrie put up 25 ppg on 57 TS% throughout the playoffs last year (sprinkled with a # of 30-40+ games on ultra-high efficiency), and helped co-anchor a championship offense. Up to that point, for all Wall's playmaking and scoring he didn't have that sort of impact.

While Wall is the better defender (margin isn't as great on a general scale - especially when Kyrie ups his activity level in the playoffs), defense at the PG position is the least important of all the 5. And with Wall's offensive workload his defense has been wildly inconsistent, even to the point of him not even attempting to stay in front of his man during stretches. Being the better defender only matters in this context if you're actually having impact there on a regular basis, otherwise less-able defenders can have similar/same impact by just being able to work within the confines of abilities, and fulfilling their roles within the defensive scheme.

As a side note: Irving's defense throughout the majority of the playoffs was borderline great (mainly during the first 2-3 rounds), especially down the stretch of games where he'd make plays like this -




Kyrie doesn't just raise his game on offense in the playoffs (that includes his playmaking - it was basically a 60/40 split between LeBron and him during the EC-run), but his defense too. He can be bulldog when he wants to be.
Considering how heated this debate is, I guess I was wrong :manny:
The main thing to look at here is not which player is the better defender, passer, scorer etc etc, but exactly who has the most impact. Because at the end of the day, that's all that matters. Just look at somebody like Gobert who arguably has more impact than any other big in the game - dude has a limited offensive skillset and is mostly reliant upon others to score. Although in saying that he is a pretty good passer and has good touch around the rim. But it's because of his defense that leads him to having more impact than arguably every other big man in the game (even the likes of edit: Brook Lopez who has greater offensive ability and can be a #2 option).
One thing I will co-sign is what @Gil Scott-Heroin said about Kyrie's ability to play off ball. He works well with LeBron because of that, and I don't think Wall and Lebron would go right together.

Maybe it's because Kyrie isn't really a point guard, but mores so an undersized 2 :lupe:
Once you realize that these archaic positional takes are simply red herrings and start looking strictly at the impact a player has, regardless of what position that you've been fooled into thinking a player is or should be or roles they should adhere to, you'll start to see a clearer picture of what's actually going on.

:manny:
 
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Wall is a better pure PG, Kyrie is a better combo guard.
None of these labels matter though in the context of who's the better player. It's beyond a distraction at this point.
Nobody ever compared Dumars to Payton just because they were short and Black. These debates are so lazy..
Nobody compared those two like that because folk were so enamored with positions and what role(s) a player should be fulfilling instead of strictly looking at impact. It's half the reason why there's so many arguments around the game on this board and IRL, and why folk can't seem to grasp the simple concept that none of this basketball orthodoxy matters.
 

Jermio

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Kyrie is a better dribbler and scorer than Wall, but worse at everything else. Put Kyrie on Washington and Wall on Cleveland and see what happens. :sas2:
 

Edub

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And he's saying wall only goes right.. Yet wall goes left all the time and dunks in with his left hand.
I was happy that chuck, Kenny and shaq thought that wall is the best pg in the east. As long as he's in the conversation I'm happy going in with his pros and cons especially for our team.
When both had bad numbers in the first half the difference they said was wall was controlling the game. The tempo... Everything. These type of intangibles I love.
Without LeBron a wall team vs a kyrie team at this point is no contest.
Can wall go left....sure, he's a star in the NBA.....but any scouting report is going to suggest forcing wall to his left to defend him best.....they cannot say that on a scouting report for Kyrie Irving....that's simply what I meant. And Kyrie's defense can be very active and effective when he needs it to be.....I've seen it.
 
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