BaggerofTea

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Right. I identify as a Libertarian Marxist these days. I have sympathies with anarcho-syndicalism and council communism in particular.

What do you perceive the be the difference between socialists and communists :jbhmm:? I personally do not accept one. Of course we can say communism is a stateless, classless society, and socialism is a society in which the working class exercises control over the means of production. I think all socialists should aspire for humanity to reach communism at some point in the (distant) future. To me, that is what makes one a communist. I do not get too caught up in the labels though, as long as the focus is on the emancipation of the working class
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The most important thing is that people acknowledge that socialism is a process and communism is the end result. Its also why marxist/socialist/communists should be advocates for futurism and enhancing the means of the production to enable the the class construct to disappear bottom up.

I am an admitted state-ist, but I believe in democratic marxism. I revere Lenin for his ability to articulate his message but Leninism, Stalinism and Trotskyism were basically fronts for elites.

Once you advocate for some semblance of "chosen representation" you effectively have created an elite class.
 

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Right. I identify as a Libertarian Marxist these days. I have sympathies with anarcho-syndicalism and council communism in particular.

What do you perceive the be the difference between socialists and communists :jbhmm:? I personally do not accept one. Of course we can say communism is a stateless, classless society, and socialism is a society in which the working class exercises control over the means of production. I think all socialists should aspire for humanity to reach communism at some point in the (distant) future. To me, that is what makes one a communist. I do not get too caught up in the labels though, as long as the focus is on the emancipation of the working class
1j2u8.jpg

A socialist to me is essentially geared around labor and economics, and most socialists are open to democracy, the state, and the concept of private property.

I personally don't believe in the libertarian view of private property, but I don't agree with Communism in that regard either. No private property at all is a deal breaker for me, but I do support regulations around it.

Don't know if that makes sense to you or others.
 

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I also believe in the freedom of speech and religion, and Communist ideas regarding those concepts are draconian to me. Personally, I don't believe in religion, and I do hope that human beings eventually let go of religion, but on their own accord and through knowledge and debate. Forcing religion to be abolished is a violation of freedom of speech and thought. Socialists, in their view of governing, tend to favor secularism that allows others to practice their faith, as long as it doesn't violate secular laws and the rights of others (something Christians in America can learn).
 
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I'll be back with some stuff (maybe), but whether you're a statist or not... the Pan-African scientific socialism that influenced DuBois, Malcolm X and Stokely Carmichael should be stressed here.

I also posted Black Like Mao some time ago detailing Red China's influence on the 60s-70s Black Liberation movement (Panthers, Stokely, RAM, etc.), which to me is a better gateway to socialism (how I got into it personally) than Lenin and those guys.

We could also do a thread on the tired and too oft. repeated Cold War propaganda that gets tossed around here incessantly.
 

Dr. Acula

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I listen to the Stuff You Should Know podcast almost every night before bed and decided to check out their podcast on Socialism yesterday. These dudes are known to approach pretty much every subject in Layman's term and don't claim to be expert and admit they may get things wrong. They welcome corrections.

When you dudes have time or if you have time let me know if it passes the litmus test. They even admit their head start to spin trying to keep all the information straight and correct. They touch on Utopian Socialism, Market Socialism, "Pure socialism" at least by the Webster definition, and just talk about it in general. I think it provides at least a 100 level introduction to the topic.

 

Dr. Acula

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Would you guys say this covers many of the branches of Socialism or is there anything missing from this list?

Types of Socialism Back to Top
  • Democratic Socialism advocates Socialism as an economic principle (the means of production should be in the hands of ordinary working people), and democracy as a governing principle (political power should be in the hands of the people democratically through a co-operative commonwealth or republic). It attempts to bring about Socialism through peaceful democratic means as opposed to violent insurrection, and represents the reformist tradition of Socialism.
    It is similar, but not necessarily identical (although the two terms are sometimes used interchangeably), to Social Democracy. This refers to an ideology that is more centrist and supports a broadly Capitalist system, with some social reforms (such as the welfare state), intended to make it more equitable and humane. Democratic Socialism, by contrast, implies an ideology that is more left-wing and supportive of a fully socialist system, established either bygradually reforming Capitalism from within, or by some form of revolutionary transformation.

  • Revolutionary Socialism advocates the need for fundamental social change through revolution or insurrection(rather than gradual refom) as a strategy to achieve a socialist society. The Third International, which was founded following the Russian Revolution of 1917, defined itself in terms of Revolutionary Socialism but also became widely identified with Communism. Trotskyism is the theory of Revolutionary Socialism as advocated by Leon Trotsky (1879 - 1940), declaring the need for an international proletarian revolution (rather than Stalin's "socialism in one country") and unwavering support for a true dictatorship of the proletariat based on democratic principles. Luxemburgism is another Revolutionary Socialist tradition, based on the writings of Rosa Luxemburg (1970 - 1919). It is similar to Trotskyism in itsopposition to the Totalitarianism of Stalin, while simultaneously avoiding the reformist politics of modern Social Democracy.

  • Utopian Socialism is a term used to define the first currents of modern socialist thought in the first quarter of the 19th Century. In general, it was used by later socialist thinkers to describe early socialist, or quasi-socialist, intellectuals who created hypothetical visions of perfect egalitarian and communalist societies without actually concerning themselves with the manner in which these societies could be created or sustained. They rejected all political (and especially all revolutionary) action, and wished to attain their ends by peaceful means and small experiments, which more practical socialists like Karl Marx saw as necessarily doomed to failure. But the early theoretical work of people like Robert Owen (1771-1858), Charles Fourier (1772-1837) and Étienne Cabet (1788–1856) gave much of the impetus to later socialist movements.

  • Libertarian Socialism aims to create a society without political, economic or social hierarchies, in which every person would have free, equal access to tools of information and production. This would be achieved through the abolition of authoritarian institutions and private property, so that direct control of the means of production and resources will be gained by the working class and society as a whole. Most Libertarian Socialists advocate abolishing the statealtogether, in much the same way as Utopian Socialists and many varieties of Anarchism (including Social Anarchism, Anarcho-Communism, Anarcho-Collectivism and Anarcho-Syndicalism).

  • Market Socialism is a term used to define an economic system in which there is a market economy directed and guided by socialist planners, and where prices would be set through trial and error (making adjustments as shortages and surpluses occur) rather than relying on a free price mechanism. By contrast, a Socialist Market Economy, such as that practiced in the People's Republic of China, in one where major industries are owned by state entities, but compete with each other within a pricing system set by the market and the state does not routinely intervene in the setting of prices.

  • Eco-Socialism (or Green Socialism or Socialist Ecology) is an ideology merging aspects of Marxism, Socialism,Green politics, ecology and the anti-globalization movement. They advocate the non-violent dismantling ofCapitalism and the State, focusing on collective ownership of the means of production, in order to mitigate the social exclusion, poverty and environmental degradation brought about (as they see it) by the capitalist system, globalizationand imperialism.

  • Christian Socialism generally refers to those on the Christian left whose politics are both Christian and socialist, and who see these two things as being interconnected. Christian socialists draw parallels between what some have characterized as the egalitarian and anti-establishment message of Jesus, and the messages of modern Socialism.
 

CHL

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Why did Napoleon 1 star this thread? It's one thing to disagree with Socialism, but to oppose factual information being disseminated merely explaining what it is?
 

JahFocus CS

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A key concept for understanding capitalism is the concept of exploitation. The term evokes a moral judgment of unfairness, but it is not primarily a moral judgment in the scientific/Marxist analysis of capitalism. Rather, exploitation describes a definite relationship between workers (those who must sell their ability to labor [i.e., rent themselves]) and capitalists (those who control/own the means of production).

This article does a good job as an introduction to the concept: What do we mean by exploitation?

What do we mean by exploitation?
Gary Lapon explains Karl Marx's understanding of exploitation under capitalism.

September 28, 2011
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THE TERM "exploitation" often conjures up images of workers laboring in sweatshops for 12 hours or more per day, for pennies an hour, driven by a merciless overseer. This is contrasted to the ideal of a "fair wage day's wage for a fair day's work"--the supposedly "normal" situation under capitalism in which workers receive a decent wage, enough for a "middle class" standard of living, health insurance and security in their retirement.

Sweatshops are horrific examples of exploitation that persist to this day. But Karl Marx had a broader and more scientific definition of exploitation: the forced appropriation of the unpaid labor of workers. Under this definition, all working-class people are exploited.

Marx argued that the ultimate source of profit, the driving force behind capitalist production, is the unpaid labor of workers. So for Marx, exploitation forms the foundation of the capitalist system.

All the billions in bonuses for the Wall Street bankers, every dividend paid to the shareholders of industrial corporations, every dollar collected by capitalist landlords--all of this is the result of the uncompensated labor of working-class people. And because exploitation is at the root of capitalism, it follows that the only way to do away with exploitation is to achieve an entirely different society--socialism, a society in which there is no tiny minority at the top that rules.

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EXPLOITATION IS not unique to capitalism. It has been a feature of all class societies, which are divided into two main classes, an exploited class that produces the wealth and an exploiter class that expropriates it.

Under slavery, exploitation is naked and obvious to exploiter and exploited alike. The slave is forced by sword and lash to work for the master, who provides just enough to keep the slave alive--all the rest of the fruits of their labor are forcefully appropriated by the slaveowner.

Similarly, under feudalism as it arose in its classical form in Europe, the serfs work on a plot of land that belongs to the lord. They work for part of the time for themselves, producing their means of subsistence, and the rest of the time, the product belongs to the lord. The terms of exploitation are clear to serf and lord alike--the serf labors for the lord, and receives nothing from the lord in return.

Capitalism is different among the chief forms of class societies Marx examined in that the exploitative nature of labor is hidden by the wage system. Except in cases of outright fraud, workers are hired, labor for a given amount of time and receive a wage in return. It appears on the surface that an equal exchange has taken place--but this isn't the case.

Why not? The capitalist, in addition to purchasing various inputs into the productive process--machinery, raw materials, etc.--also buys what Marx called "labor-power," increments of workers' time during which the capitalist controls the workers' creative and physical energies.

Under capitalism, most needs are met, at least for those who can afford them, by commodities--commodities being goods and services produced for sale on the market. Working-class people, who don't own the means to produce and sell commodities, have one commodity they can sell: their labor-power, their ability to work. In this way, workers are forced to sell themselves to some capitalist piecemeal in order to acquire money to buy the necessities of life.

Labor-power, according to Marx in writing his first volume of Capital, is "the aggregate of those mental and physical capabilities existing in the physical form, the living personality, of a human being, capabilities which he [or she] sets in motion whenever he [or she] produces a use-value of any kind." In other words, labor-power is the capacity to work, to create value, which the worker sells to the capitalists in increments for a wage.

Labor, on the other hand, is the actual process of work itself. Like the buyer of any commodity, the capitalist claims the right to consume the commodity they purchase. In this case, the consumption of labor-power consists of the control of the labor process and the ownership of the products workers create during it.

According to Marx's analysis, unlike machinery, raw materials and other inanimate inputs that pass on their value to the product but create no new value, labor-power is a "special commodity...whose use-value possesses the peculiar property of being a source of value." In other words, workers produce new value contained in the final product, which belongs to the capitalist.

The distinction between "labor-power" and "labor" is the key to understanding exploitation under capitalism.

When a capitalist pays a worker a wage, they are not paying for the value of a certain amount of completed labor, but for labor-power. The soaring inequality in contemporary society illustrates this--over the past three decades of neoliberalism, the wealth that workers create has increased, but this has not been reflected in wages, which remain stagnant. Instead, an increasing proportion of the wealth produced by workers swelled the pockets of the superrich, who did not compensate the workers for their increased production on the job.

It appears that the capitalist pays the worker for the value produced by their labor because workers only receive a paycheck after they have worked for a given amount of time. In reality, this amounts to an interest-free loan of labor-power by the worker to the capitalist. As Marx wrote, "In all cases, therefore, the worker advances the use-value of his labor-power to the capitalist. He lets the buyer consume it before he receives payment of the price. Everywhere, the worker allows credit to the capitalist."

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CAPITALISTS PURCHASE labor-power on the market. In general, the wage--the price of labor-power--is, like all other commodities, determined by its cost of production, which is in turn regulated by struggles between workers and capitalists over the level of wages and benefits, and by competition between workers for jobs.

As Marx wrote in Wage Labor and Capital, the cost of production of labor-power is "the cost required for the maintenance as the laborer...and for his [or her] education and training as a laborer."

In other words, the price of labor-power is determined by the cost of food, clothing, housing and education at a given standard of living. Marx adds that "the cost of production of...[labor-power] must include the cost of propagation, by means of which the race of workers is enabled to multiply itself, and to replace worn-out workers with new ones." So, wages must also include the cost of raising children, the next generation of workers.

So in Marx's generalized analysis, the level of wages depends on what it takes to keep workers and their families (who represent the next generation of workers) alive and able to work--with their standard of living affected by the outcome of class struggles between workers and capitalists.

The crucial point is that the cost of wages or labor-power depends on factors completely independent of the actual value produced by workers during the labor process. This difference is the source of "surplus value," or profit. So let's compare the price of labor-power to the value, expressed in price, of the commodities that workers creates through their labor.

To take a simple example, let's assume that a worker is able to produce in four hours new value that is equivalent to the value of their labor-power for the day--to, say, $100 in wages. Marx called this "necessary labor," because it is the amount of labor required to replace the wages paid by the capitalist, and because if the worker labored independently and not for a capitalist, it would be "necessary" for them to work four hours to maintain their standard of living.

If it was a matter of "a fair day's pay for a fair day's work," workers ought to be able to go home after four hours of labor. In our example, the capitalist is paying them $100 for the workday, and the worker produced $100 worth of new value in the form of products that belong to the capitalist, which they can sell on the market to recoup what they spent on wages and other costs of production.

But things don't work this way under capitalism. As Marx wrote in a pamphlet calledValue, Price and Profit, "By buying the daily or weekly value of the laboring power of the [worker], the capitalist has, therefore, acquired the right to use or make that laboring power during the whole day or week."

Hence, the worker, in order to receive a wage equivalent to the value they produce in four hours, is forced by the capitalist to work longer--a total of, in our example, eight hours. The value created during the additional four hours, embodied in the products produced by the worker during that time, is what Marx called "surplus value."

When this surplus product is sold, the capitalist pockets the proceeds--this, according to Marx, is the secret to the source of profits. And it's not only industrial capitalists whose profits derive from surplus value, or unpaid labor. The "rentier" classes, such as finance capital and landlords, take their cut from the wealth extracted from the labor of workers in the form of interest on loans to the industrial capitalists and to others in society, rent for factories and homes, and so on.

Exploitation forms the basis of all the profits shared among the entire capitalist class. It is not simply the case that the wealthy have a lot while workers have little; capitalists accumulate wealth through a system of organized theft from the working class.

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AN UNDERSTANDING of the basics of Marx's theory of exploitation helps to explain the different forms of struggles between workers and capitalists. To take a few examples (although there are many more):

One of the earliest such struggles was over the length of the working day, which Marx discusses at length in the first volume of Capital. So long as everything else remains the same, capitalists can increase the amount of "surplus labor" over and above that needed to produce the value of wages by extending the length of the working day. This increases the rate of exploitation, as workers spend a greater portion of the working day performing unpaid labor for the capitalist.

In the 1880s in the U.S., workers, led by anarchists and socialists, waged heroic struggles to limit the working day to eight hours. These workers were struggling to decrease the rate of exploitation. By fighting for a shorter working day, they were fighting to decrease the amount of unpaid labor they were forced to perform for the capitalists.

Similarly, struggles over wages and benefits are struggles over the value and price of labor-power, which is an expression of workers' standard of living. Capitalists seek to lower wages and slash benefits, decreasing the price of labor-power in order to increase the accumulation of surplus value, to maximize their profits.

This is evident in the current wide-ranging attack on workers' living standards, from public-sector workers' wages, pensions and health benefits to private-sector workers such as those at Verizon. The 45,000 union workers who went on strike at Verizon and the public-sector workers and their allies who rose up in Wisconsin were fighting to defend the price of labor-power.

Most importantly, Marx's theory of exploitation reveals that because the source of capitalists' wealth is the unpaid labor of workers, the interests of workers and capitalists--like slave and master or serf and lord before them--are diametrically opposed and are impossible to reconcile. The two will always come into conflict since capitalists can only increase their share of the wealth at the expense of workers, and vice versa.

Workers have to struggle to decrease the severity of the exploitation they face under capitalism. But as long as the capitalist system exists, workers will be exploited, and their unpaid labor will remain the source of the profits that are the lifeblood of the system.

Therefore, Marx concluded that the only way for workers to control the wealth they create and use it to meet their needs was under a different system altogether. As he wrote inValue, Price and Profit, "Instead of the conservative motto 'A fair day's wages for a fair day's work!' they ought to inscribe on their banner the revolutionary watchword: 'Abolition of the wages system!'"

According to Marx, only when workers control the means of production for their own benefit can exploitation be abolished--only then will "the expropriators [be] expropriated."

I think the next topic I will explore will be private property (and how that differs definitively from personal property).
 

YvrzTrvly

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Ive always struggled with trying to rationalize how a transition into our preferred system after 300 years of capitalism and not 100 percent support would translate into the beginnings of a new chapter for the us...

Thoughts?
 

JahFocus CS

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Ive always struggled with trying to rationalize how a transition into our preferred system after 300 years of capitalism and not 100 percent support would translate into the beginnings of a new chapter for the us...

Thoughts?

For the U.S. specifically?

It is hard because racism in particular (not to mention the other -isms and -phobias) is so central to American life. Militant opposition to racism is needed, not only by minorities, but very importantly by cac radicals (:pachaha:) in their own communities. Cac radicals need to step up their games considerably.

A prerequisite to working-class liberation is fighting back racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. within the ranks of the working class. I believe that racial reconciliation and justice is only possible through a revolutionary jump to socialism. It isn't possible under capitalism. The best that could be hoped for under capitalism is separatism, which is not really desirable and perhaps not all that feasible at this point given the trends toward economic globalization.

Yet, something has to give. The U.S. has never really had a reckoning when it comes to race. Those contradictions can't lie dormant for eternity.
 

YvrzTrvly

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This is true. As a sidebar do you see this new right wing militancy being a product of the progress that these progressive movements have made?
 
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