JahFocus CS

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This is true. As a sidebar do you see this new right wing militancy being a product of the progress that these progressive movements have made?

That's a minor part of it, but the big reforms have been being pushed back since the 70s and 80s. I think it's more so about the convulsions that White supremacy is going through as the demographics of the country change. How does White supremacy morph to adapt to the realities of a majority-minority country?
 

JahFocus CS

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Brehs, I'm gonna need some insight into how the working class can win its freedom when such a large majority of the class is mystified by bourgeois ideas on the economy, racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. The more information becomes available, the dumber people get :leostare: How could barely literate Russians in the early 1900s come to realize that they were getting royally fukked and tried to fight to establish a different society, yet we have the world's information at our fingertips and a multitude of ways to see all the ways we're getting screwed, but still perpetuate the system?
 

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Brehs, I'm gonna need some insight into how the working class can win its freedom when such a large majority of the class is mystified by bourgeois ideas on the economy, racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. The more information becomes available, the dumber people get :leostare: How could barely literate Russians in the early 1900s come to realize that they were getting royally fukked and tried to fight to establish a different society, yet we have the world's information at our fingertips and a multitude of ways to see all the ways we're getting screwed, but still perpetuate the system?
It's possible that those dumb people look at the end result of Lenin's vangaurd of the proletariat, and aren't too impressed with what they see.
I suspect if those same Russians had a crystal ball they'd reconsider as well.
 

JahFocus CS

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It's possible that those dumb people look at the end result of Lenin's vangaurd of the proletariat, and aren't too impressed with what they see.
I suspect if those same Russians had a crystal ball they'd reconsider as well.

That's like saying the Haitian revolutionaries would look at what Haiti has become and decide not to fight to overthrow slavery and colonialism:scusthov:

Oppressed people should always fight for their freedom... doesn't mean that mistakes won't be made along the way. But those should be learning experiences, not deterrences.
 

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That's like saying the Haitian revolutionaries would look at what Haiti has become and decide not to fight to overthrow slavery and colonialism:scusthov:

Oppressed people should always fight for their freedom... doesn't mean that mistakes won't be made along the way. But those should be learning experiences, not deterrences.
I'm not sure that comparison works, but I'm not trying to derail the thread or get into a pointless back and forth.

I just feel like, outside of neolithic societies, there's few examples of socialism actually working. Marx called the first European socialists utopian, and I tend to think the same of socialism in general. I think it's hard to get past the reality that there's a basic human instinct to promote self interest. Every society needs a power structure, every societal power structure is human, and is therefor subject to corruption and tyranny.

I know, I know...Sweden. To be fair, the book is still unwritten on Nordic socialism; not enough time has passed to use that example to disprove the countless times where socialism has failed.

Like all things, compromise seems to be the best bet. In that sense I agree with a lot of Social Democratic ideas. But technically Marxists view Social Democrats as collaborators with the oppressors, and, therefore, the enemy. I feel like that point gets lost on most neo-Marxists.
 

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Brehs, I'm gonna need some insight into how the working class can win its freedom when such a large majority of the class is mystified by bourgeois ideas on the economy, racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. The more information becomes available, the dumber people get :leostare: How could barely literate Russians in the early 1900s come to realize that they were getting royally fukked and tried to fight to establish a different society, yet we have the world's information at our fingertips and a multitude of ways to see all the ways we're getting screwed, but still perpetuate the system?

The barely literate Russians had food shortages, nothing to lose, and we're incited to revolt by educated people who would become the new elites once a new form of government was established.

People now, for the most part in the Western World (and parts of Asia) have accessable entertainment on hand, food is readily available for the most part, people are scared of being imprisoned, etc. Plus, in the United States, there has been 100+ years of conditioning about the Red Scare. You see how a lot of the country labels Obama a socialist when he would be a center-right wing politician in some European countries.

When things get bad enough, you'll see it change. It hasn't happened yet.
 

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Brehs, I'm gonna need some insight into how the working class can win its freedom when such a large majority of the class is mystified by bourgeois ideas on the economy, racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. The more information becomes available, the dumber people get :leostare: How could barely literate Russians in the early 1900s come to realize that they were getting royally fukked and tried to fight to establish a different society, yet we have the world's information at our fingertips and a multitude of ways to see all the ways we're getting screwed, but still perpetuate the system?
The idea that we are being exploited through labor/capital is your opinion, not an undisputable objective fact. So from that alone the pivot of this ideology is shaky. IMO a much stronger argument could be made that we are being exploited politically. You yourself have alluded to this in your acknowledgement of the populace' counterproductive mystification of ancillary social issues. Donald Trump, Shillary Clinton etc are not interested in the exploitation of workers; they are interested in the exploitation of voters. Their ambitions are based around political power.
 

JahFocus CS

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The idea that we are being exploited through labor/capital is your opinion, not an undisputable objective fact. So from that alone the pivot of this ideology is shaky. IMO a much stronger argument could be made that we are being exploited politically. You yourself have alluded to this in your acknowledgement of the populace' counterproductive mystification of ancillary social issues. Donald Trump, Shillary Clinton etc are not interested in the exploitation of workers; they are interested in the exploitation of voters. Their ambitions are based around political power.

Reread http://www.thecoli.com/posts/18248593/.

Exploitation is an objective fact. That doesn't inherently mean it can be positively moved beyond (I accept that, perhaps, systemic collapse is more likely than moving beyond capitalism. If so, so be it.). Just like slaves didn't auto-revolt after realizing they were enslaved.
 

YvrzTrvly

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Socialism has been proven to work already. Now granted this is not on nation scale but if my memory serves, part of defected ukraine, part of spain, and i believe a part of france back in the day have all instituted a socialist ideal and it worked quite well.

Can you either of you prove or debunk this?
 

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Reread http://www.thecoli.com/posts/18248593/.

Exploitation is an objective fact. That doesn't inherently mean it can be positively moved beyond (I accept that, perhaps, systemic collapse is more likely than moving beyond capitalism. If so, so be it.). Just like slaves didn't auto-revolt after realizing they were enslaved.
I peeped the article, just didn't feel like it was worth addressing but since you asked fukk it.

Whole thing hinges on this dubious distinction between labor and "labor-power". Labor being "the actual process of work itself", and labor power being a chimera that enriches capitalists in ways labor somehow doesn't. What exactly is the difference? If one goes through "the actual process of work itself", they HAVE give up the "capacity to work & create value", which I am interpeting as a worker's time. Right? You can't work without giving up some of your time, can you? How is requiring people to give up time to work exploitative :dahell:

There is a litany of questionable other assertions as well. He simultaneously acknowledges labor as a commodity, which has a price Marx defines as determined by the cost to produce said commodity, but then complains about the disconnect between the actual price of labor and what Marx has defined that it should be. Let me ask you this. When you buy something from a retailer, do you ask the workers if they are being paid enough? If they say no, do you pay more for the product to cover that spread, or do you complete the transaction at the price(s) set by the retailer and go along your merry way? With your clothing operation, have you set prices and redistributed proceeds back down the chain to be at what you feel is a fair level for the workers who make it? Maybe you print the shirts yourself. OK, unless you grow, mill, weave, dye, cut and sew the cotton, someone else is working on your shirts. What's their cut of your profit? So unless Marxists exist completely outside of the capitalist system they feel is a failure, they too are complicit in the exploitation they claim to rail against. So I'm not buying that point.

Not to mention the role of automation and the existence of workerless factories :yeshrug:

There's also this very fundamental lack of understanding of business:

In our example, the capitalist is paying them $100 for the workday, and the worker produced $100 worth of new value in the form of products that belong to the capitalist, which they can sell on the market to recoup what they spent on wages and other costs of production.

Again, let's come back to your shirts. If it cost you $20 to make a shirt, what would you gain from selling the shirt at $20? Would you bother selling the shirt at all? In the case of the worker/capitalist, that $100 in wages doesn't at all factor in the costs for all the infrastructure for the worker to work. The building the worker is in, the lights the worker works under, the tools the worker uses, the support staff for the worker like human resources..... who is going to pay for that, if 100% of the money from the sales of products goes back to nothing but worker's wages? So no, for an operation to function even without profit the wages paid to the worker have to be a fraction of the proceeds from the product, unless the worker is creating products with zero raw materials, or facilities, or tools paid for and provided by the owner(s) of the company :yeshrug:

I would keep going but it is exhausting and IMO pointless to give such a poorly thought out article much thought. Why should we consider the economic ideas of someone who doesn't even know what the components of the operating costs of a business are?
 

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Gina so ultimately i think he wants to know what the solution is to that question...
 

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Brehs, I'm gonna need some insight into how the working class can win its freedom when such a large majority of the class is mystified by bourgeois ideas on the economy, racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. The more information becomes available, the dumber people get :leostare: How could barely literate Russians in the early 1900s come to realize that they were getting royally fukked and tried to fight to establish a different society, yet we have the world's information at our fingertips and a multitude of ways to see all the ways we're getting screwed, but still perpetuate the system?


The Bolsheviks broke down and simplified the message of revolution

Propaganda is whats killing us, in many different forms.

Remember the bourgeois purpose is to ensure that the working class does not unite across racial, sex, sexual orientation and other surface levels identifiers.

Both sides the same coin (Republican and Democrat) have used those "isms" to fragment society. Republicans, the original capitalists overlords have for nearly 2 centuries used racism as a form of hatred to keep poor and middle class whites from looking at their black counterparts as equals. The Democrats, originally social liberals, saw an advantage to this hatred and began to cultivate fear as a mechanism of keeping working class minorities and liberal minded whites from looking at class struggle.

Both of these entities desire greatly to keep "isms" alive
 
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