The problem with Joe was, he thought he could just go off the top, and not have concrete evidence to prove his points, so when he was confronted and asked to back up his claims, he was taken a back and didn't know how to respond. He's so used to getting softball questions and being mentally superior to people around him, he didn't know how to react on being called out on his bullshyt. People claim Joe is a great debater, in actuality, he's a great spinner. This is what he does
Joe Budden: "The sky is red"
Me: "Why do you think the sky is red?"
Joe Budden: "Hold on now, I'm not saying the sky is red. You're misinterpreted what I mean by that"
I think the problem starts with calling Cthagod a puppet, is that it's more of a feeling he gets than an actual tangible fact. Something like that is hard to back up, unless it's blatantly obvious. See Charlemagne change is far more subtle than overt. With the BI podcast, they always like to give context, regardless if you disagree, they at least always try to explain how they came to their conclusion. Joe is used to not having to back up his claims, and shooting from the hip, and if caught contradicting himself, is good enough of a manipulator, that the people around him are easily fooled.