The economists are right: Rent control is bad

Json

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Yes, America's population has grown which kills your idea that there aren't enough people to populate rural regions. As for the claim that I'm not focusing on lifestyle, you don't seem to understand what I already explained to you on that front.

That's simply false, moving people into larger, denser cities is worse for health AND less environmentally sustainable. I already pointed that out to you in a couple links. A larger breakdown would force you to see how urban concentrations often require longer supply chains rather than shorter, how moving people away from natural areas tends to cause their health to degrade (due to worse air, more sedentary lifestyles, and in some cases worse diet), and most importantly how moving people away from land tends to lead to worse uses of that land rather than better. One of the primary reasons I argue for a more diverse rural future is because it has been demonstrated over and over that the more people you move out of the land and the more mechanized agribusiness you replace them with, the WORSE the land is treated. Reducing labor almost inevitably leads to increased use of machines and chemicals - more soil loss, more petrochemical burning and air pollution, more pesticide, herbicide, and fertilizer use, and less efficient use of land.

No it doesn't. Population doesn't simply correlate to population density.France has 30 million more people than Texas but on less land, why can't we use less land?

Those health concerns aren't simply down to population density. The fact people are sedentary isn't cause they're in a six story building. Eating McDonald's while watching Netflix for 9 hrs is making you fat. The fact people would rather sit in a car driving for Ubereat six hours a day instead of walking a block a day for fresh fruit is making you fat. That's nothing to do with rural or urban setting.



Oil, as I pointed out to you before, is a quite recent commodity and wasn't responsible for many meaningfully long-lived communities anyway. Mining can rightfully be marginalized to a degree but the need will likely never go away, just look at how much mining needs to be undertaken to support current technology.


Those minerals aren't all in one place or country in the same amounts. So just because we have some here doesn't mean we should just keep sprawling out where ever we find it.

We try to protect Alaska wilderness from drilling cause the health of the land for animals is just as important.
 

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No it doesn't. Population doesn't simply correlate to population density.France has 30 million more people than Texas but on less land, why can't we use less land?
I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. Yes, we "could" increase density, but that would be a terrible idea (I actually agree that we should use less land, but you seem to miss that suburban sprawl + corporate agriculture actually uses MORE land, not less). You had claimed there wasn't even enough people to populate urban areas, which is obviously untrue.



Those health concerns aren't simply down to population density. The fact people are sedentary isn't cause they're in a six story building. Eating McDonald's while watching Netflix for 9 hrs is making you fat. The fact people would rather sit in a car driving for Ubereat six hours a day instead of walking a block a day for fresh fruit is making you fat. That's nothing to do with rural or urban setting.
City work involves far less physical movement than rural work. Sitting in traffic gives much less opportunity to work out. Running/biking/hiking in nature is far more enjoyable and readily practiced than doing the same on a sidewalk while you choke down exhaust fumes. And city schedules and lifestyles encourage more eating of processed and quickly prepared foods, which tend to be much worse for health.

Not to mention the issues that corporate hormones, antibiotics, and preservatives have created. Here's a crazy study for you - people right now who eat the exact same foods and do the exact same amount of exercise as someone in the 1980s are significantly FATTER than that 1980s person would have been. Doesn't that concern you?

I mean seriously, read this study because it should be worrisome to everyone who promotes a more urban, more corporate-dependent lifestyle. This trend is going to get worse unless we actively fight it:

It's Harder for Millennials to Stay Thin Than It Was for Boomers





Those minerals aren't all in one place or country in the same amounts. So just because we have some here doesn't mean we should just keep sprawling out where ever we find it.

We try to protect Alaska wilderness from drilling cause the health of the land for animals is just as important.
The part you keep missing is that a healthy rural population tends to be BETTER for those places than a corporate-dominated, completely mechanized operation doing the exact same work.

I'm not arguing for more mining and more drilling. I'm not arguing for more sprawl. I am arguing for HEALTHIER, sustainable communities that are working in tandem with their environment (as sustainable rural communities were always required to do) rather than corporate operations which simply exploit it for destruction.
 

Json

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You've got the order backwards though. The use of home economics largely went away BEFORE the skills went away. People didn't just suddenly forget their skills, they stopped employing them due to major advertizing and corporate/societal pressure to turn those portions of our life over to products. The problem with home economics is that if someone is fixing their clothes, making their shelves, cooking their food, that's less shyt you can sell them. There was an enormous corporate push to convince people to stop doing that shyt (combined with other societal trends like wage stagnation and the perceived need for two-income households) that created the problem. The skills were only lost later BECAUSE they weren't being used anymore.

This is a patently false.

The fact women were taking more roles outside outside of the house after WWII cause the family dynamic was changing after the war effort. Plus we were emphasizing scientific advancements for future careers.

Homeeconomics courses started as a way for women to make money from their domestic chores in the early 1900s.

Those classes went away just like trades cause the schools weren't funding them. Those classes became underpritorized in favor of things that would lead to jobs that were away from homemaker.


You keep seeing these government/corporate conspiracies when it's sometime just societies changing and government/corportations taking advantage of those changes. And now we've become accustomed to simply throwing stuff away.
 

Json

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I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. Yes, we "could" increase density, but that would be a terrible idea (I actually agree that we should use less land, but you seem to miss that suburban sprawl + corporate agriculture actually uses MORE land, not less). You had claimed there wasn't even enough people to populate urban areas, which is obviously untrue.

Get this straight. Consolidating people isn't the same as we can't fill all areas. We can.

I understand corporate farms use more land and resources. My family used to own a farm. On my mother's side of the family it was normal to keep chickens outside for cooking/eggs even in the city.

I'm saying it doesn't make sense to keep land with 1500 abandoned homes/apartments in Detroit so we can keep a smaller outskirt city with an aging population and no jobs.

The lifestyles people lead whether it's in the dense city or rural area is what needs to change.


City work involves far less physical movement than rural work. Sitting in traffic gives much less opportunity to work out. Running/biking/hiking in nature is far more enjoyable and readily practiced than doing the same on a sidewalk while you choke down exhaust fumes. And city schedules and lifestyles encourage more eating of processed and quickly prepared foods, which tend to be much worse for health.

Not to mention the issues that corporate hormones, antibiotics, and preservatives have created. Here's a crazy study for you - people right now who eat the exact same foods and do the exact same amount of exercise as someone in the 1980s are significantly FATTER than that 1980s person would have been. Doesn't that concern you?

I mean seriously, read this study because it should be worrisome to everyone who promotes a more urban, more corporate-dependent lifestyle. This trend is going to get worse unless we actively fight it:

It's Harder for Millennials to Stay Thin Than It Was for Boomers

Yeah. Everyone knows are foods are pumped with chemicals. Monsato and all the others. Europe regulates chemicals way more than we do. That has nothing to do with why Americans don't want walk or food proportions.

You going to Applebees and eating 3 plates of steak fingers and a dessert isn't going to be fixed cause you get in your car and drive to your house and go to sleep for 8hrs instead of eating a fish and brussel sprouts from a local farmer.






The part you keep missing is that a healthy rural population tends to be BETTER for those places than a corporate-dominated, completely mechanized operation doing the exact same work.

I'm not arguing for more mining and more drilling. I'm not arguing for more sprawl. I am arguing for HEALTHIER, sustainable communities that are working in tandem with their environment (as sustainable rural communities were always required to do) rather than corporate operations which simply exploit it for destruction.

Of course!!!

Europe isn't healthier than America cause they have different evil corporations or government forces. They certainly aren't farming more than we do. Japan has healthier people despite the same tech and just as dense living conditions.

The mindset of the population is different.
 
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Json

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Breh, I also spent a huge part of my life in rural Oregon, we left Cali when I was 4 and didn't move back to LA until my mid/late teens. You can't use that one on me, I know exactly what it's like to grow up in a town with just one movie screen and one fast food outlet. We didn't have a Walmart, we didn't have meaningful public transit (there was one county bus line that could take you to the next county over a few times a day), the biggest store in town was a Safeway.

And I would RATHER my daughters grow up in a place like that than in fukking LA.

So why didn't you?

You did exactly what i said is the problem with the small towns. People don't say there. Homes used to be generational.

On the land my family owned in the middle of nowhere. it was like 10 homes that raised my grandfather and his brothers and kids. Those 10 homes in 50 years are now abandoned mostly and only 3 have been lived in for the last 20 years despite having 8 grandkids. And now by the time I'm 50 it will be 2 kids(only one still in the area)
 

Json

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But I've at least tried to educate myself on them. I've read full books by Howard, Berry, Eisenstein, and a ton of articles, not just on the movement in the USA but also in Asia. I'm frustrated that you just discount all the work people have done to understand how such things happen and then treat it like it's the inevitable workings of the sands of time.

And I don't think government is the only or even main factor. I think corporate power is the primary factor, aided by corporate influence on government, aided by other government agendas, aided by white supremacy in the South, aided by technological advances that increased corporate power, aided by cultural changes that prioritized city life, almost all of which were driven by a loans-at-interest based economic system that required the economy to expand constantly or it would die.

I'm not trying to say that government is the "only" factor. I'm saying that if you're blind to how government has helped to create this situation, then you won't see how government used correctly could also help to wind it back. Because it really is an existential issue.

I'll say agree that government/corporations can and do negatively influence American's behavior. All you have to do is look at how marijuana was outlawed.

But I fear the way you seem to want corporations to be behind this is so you have some kind "Big Bad" to defeat and free Americans from this unholy influence. When unfortunately, there's another unsavory aspect of human nature that can't be put aside.

There isn't always a "build it and they will come" with the way Americans want to live their lives. While I could definitely see people "gardening" fresh fruits/vegetables on a smaller scale, but the actual changes you want to see to remove the bigAg influence I don't see it.
 

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I'll say agree that government/corporations can and do negatively influence American's behavior. All you have to do is look at how marijuana was outlawed.

But I fear the way you seem to want corporations to be behind this is so you have some kind "Big Bad" to defeat and free Americans from this unholy influence. When unfortunately, there's another unsavory aspect of human nature that can't be put aside.
Why aren't you willing to believe that I've actually read the exact shyt historians have written on this issue and THAT is why I argue those exact facts?

I was completely committed to urban development for most of my life because that was all I knew. I believed like everyone else that the hand we were being dealt was just inevitable and we had to deal with it. It wasn't until about 2014 when I was first introduced to historians of the transition that I began to realize there was much more going on than I had ever known about. The stuff they wrote about suddenly made sense of the shyt I had seen growing up, was confirmed by the farmers I began talking to about it, and things began to fall into place that I had never bothered thinking about before.




This is a patently false.

The fact women were taking more roles outside outside of the house after WWII cause the family dynamic was changing after the war effort. Plus we were emphasizing scientific advancements for future careers.

Homeeconomics courses started as a way for women to make money from their domestic chores in the early 1900s.

Those classes went away just like trades cause the schools weren't funding them. Those classes became underpritorized in favor of things that would lead to jobs that were away from homemaker.

You keep seeing these government/corporate conspiracies when it's sometime just societies changing and government/corportations taking advantage of those changes. And now we've become accustomed to simply throwing stuff away.
We must be talking about two completely different things because there were still home ec courses when I was going to school in the 1980s and 1990s. If you're talking about shyt outside of the regular public school system then once again you're talking about a momentary flash in the pan that has nothing to do with the sustained reality.




Get this straight. Consolidating people isn't the same as we can't fill all areas. We can.

I understand corporate farms use more land and resources. My family used to own a farm. On my mother's side of the family it was normal to keep chickens outside for cooking/eggs even in the city.

I'm saying it doesn't make sense to keep land with 1500 abandoned homes/apartments in Detroit so we can keep a smaller outskirt city with an aging population and no jobs.
Why not convert those abandoned homes in Detroit into farmland, since Detroit doesn't have those jobs either? In fact, that is EXACTLY what some of the links I posted earlier were proposing and EXACTLY what black urban farmers were attempting to do, but (big surprise) corporate land speculators with corrupt connections to government were blocking them.



Yeah. Everyone knows are foods are pumped with chemicals. Monsato and all the others. Europe regulates chemicals way more than we do. That has nothing to do with why Americans don't want walk or food proportions.

You going to Applebees and eating 3 plates of steak fingers and a dessert isn't going to be fixed cause you get in your car and drive to your house and go to sleep for 8hrs instead of eating a fish and brussel sprouts from a local farmer.
Again, greater corporate influence on American politics is the direct reason why Monsanto and the others have kept regulations big-business friendly and consumer unfriendly here.

Again, greater corporate influence on American life is the direct reason why portion sizes have grown out of control. You don't think that massive campaigns to "supersize" your meals is having an effect on the consumer? You don't think massive corporate campaigns to get Americans to eat more beef....will result in Americans eating more beef?

Like I said before there are myriad other influences too, much of which are driven by urbanization and other lifestyle changes that we could wind back if we stop to think about it, but you keep treating those changes as if they're inevitable.




Of course!!!

Europe isn't healthier than America cause they have different evil corporations or government forces. They certainly aren't farming more than we do. Japan has healthier people despite the same tech and just as dense living conditions.

The mindset of the population is different.
Actually, Europe does have more family farms and less corporate control over farming than we do. You just pointed out above that they regulate chemicals in food more than America does, who do you think is responsible for ensuring America isn't like Europe? And Europe has a MUCH better history of sustainable farming techniques than America does, a lot of this can be traced back to the fact that European farming plots have had to produce for centuries and centuries and in some cases even 1000+ years, while many American plots were first broken in in the 1800s by pioneers who didn't know shyt about sustainable farming and were quickly used up and moved on from because they thought they had plenty of land.

Sadly, parts of Europe have shifted towards corporate control, it's happening slower than it did in America but it's a trend there too.



So why didn't you?
I didn't even begin getting the insight into this whole issue until 2014, and my current job is centered around mentoring/education and urban development in depressed city areas. But since about 2016 or so we've been seriously talking about moving to the countryside and promoting rural development there instead, and the fact that my baby daughter was born just last year only makes me want to pursue that even more strongly. Due to my current contract it probably won't happen before 2021.
 

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No, we need accept basic supply and demand economics.
Not everyone can live on the coast.:yeshrug:
But until the current economic system changes enormous numbers of poor people WILL live in those places. They'll just be shoved into shytty degrading conditions with slum lords taking economic rents. The way we've fukked up the national economics and ecosystems we don't have the capacity to spread people out across the rest of the country with living-wage work.
 

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But until the current economic system changes enormous numbers of poor people WILL live in those places. They'll just be shoved into shytty degrading conditions with slum lords taking economic rents. The way we've fukked up the national economics and ecosystems we don't have the capacity to spread people out across the rest of the country with living-wage work.

America should have never became a service-based economy. We were so much better off as a producer nation in the 60s and 70s with unionized work.
 

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So why didn't you?

You did exactly what i said is the problem with the small towns. People don't say there. Homes used to be generational.

On the land my family owned in the middle of nowhere. it was like 10 homes that raised my grandfather and his brothers and kids. Those 10 homes in 50 years are now abandoned mostly and only 3 have been lived in for the last 20 years despite having 8 grandkids. And now by the time I'm 50 it will be 2 kids(only one still in the area)

What part of Mississippi are you in?
 
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