☑︎#VoteDemocrat

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This kinda gets to the heart of the problem. This is just a Libertarian argument if you can't acknowledge that there is risk that comes with deregulation. He's using the Great Recession and the housing deregulation leading up to it as an example of risks.

He quite literally acknowledges that there are places where deregulation can help open up "choke points" but isn't limiting his solutions to deregulation because that's failed before since it didn't do enough to shield purchasers from profit motives here:
The Klein-Thompson view is that Democrats clogged the building channel with unnecessary or just burdensome rules. My view is that powerful forces profit off choke points and want them to remain. Joe Weisenthal had a particularly insightful explanation of this dynamic, noting that “any impulse to abundantly build out less profitable lines of business undoubtedly strikes at the heart of how American capitalism works.” Even in housing this is true, as homebuilder cartels have been building less and making more money by hoarding land.
This is a problem with not having a single government communist country. Do you want imminent domain from a strong federal government dictating local building? Do you want the Chinese model????

You can’t have it both ways.


Homebuilders have been guided by zoning restricting their ability to build. Look at Houston and look at Los Angeles. C’mon now.
These viewpoints can be complementary, but only with open eyes. If we want to build to productive ends, building power to take down finance and monopoly is the best way to make that happen. The Biden administration’s attempt to do that was uneven and too neglectful of the short term, but directionally correct.
I’m tired of this utopian bullshyt from leftists and you yourself should be asking more from these seemingly comfortable answers being provided.

Of course, in a perfect world we get a corruption free world where finance isn’t exploiting people and monopoly power isn’t used to reduce the amount of housing.

But thats not the world we live in. We’ve had decades of leftists guilt tripping people with NIMBY movements by whining about gentrification, now you’re telling us we have to remove mortgages as a funding mechanism before we can break ground.

When is the time for you all to stop arguing and start DOING?
I'm italicizing a key point here. These People aren't rejecting the abundance agenda. They're saying not to slip into Libertarian levels with this shyt. "Build, Baby, Build" without a critique of power is literally the Cato Institute shyt.
We need a more libertarian view on housing.

You focused on single family housing, not multi family housing and apartments. If everything is zoned for single families with minimum lot sizes, then thats all you will get.
See, this is where you seem to be chasing a fight instead of reading with any kind of open mind. I'm quoting Dayen's conclusion that Abundance and Anti-monopoly strategies can be married for a more robust solution, and you say there's no reform focus and that he's laying out "obstacles to progress."
A “more robust solution” sounds like a branding exercise for professional pontificators.

Dayen’s business plan is to call out corporate grift. Dayen isn’t an urban planner or a city designer. Dayen isn’t interested in getting young people apartments and housing or doing everything possible to develop new places to live.

Dayen wants his readers to get mad at CEOs doing complex tax schemes and skimming off of rebates.

Warning not to go full Libertarian with this shyt isn't the same as abandoning the concept altogether. Especially when he gives a very real example of the dangers of Deregulation that one of the literal authors of the Abundance Agenda acknowledged.

Ehhh what? That article is focused on the risks of unfettered Deregulation from a historical context. It's not talking about magical government housing, you're just throwing out a strawman. To quote Dayen:
Substituting that with a lens that simply preferences action is dangerous, precisely because what we call deregulation really just shifts regulation (that is, the rules of how markets operate) from government to private hands. During the housing bubble, bankers structured the market to their own ends, and it resulted in catastrophe.
More and more places keep proving this critique wrong. People want results.



The housing bubble was because people were taking mortgages from corrupt loan terms and buying homes they couldn’t afford to maintain. The housing bubble had nothing to do with 1 bedroom apartments in dense urban cores.
 

storyteller

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This is a problem with not having a single government communist country. Do you want imminent domain from a strong federal government dictating local building? Do you want the Chinese model????

You can’t have it both ways.
I'm not a libertarian, so I don't assume any regulation is automatically communism.
Homebuilders have been guided by zoning restricting their ability to build. Look at Houston and look at Los Angeles. C’mon now.
Everyone acknowledges that some zoning restrictions need to be lifted. You're doing strawmen again. The argument is that blanket lifting of restrictions has problems, and won't resolve all of the issues of housing.
I’m tired of this utopian bullshyt from leftists and you yourself should be asking more from these seemingly comfortable answers being provided.
No one said anything Utopian.
Of course, in a perfect world we get a corruption free world where finance isn’t exploiting people and monopoly power isn’t used to reduce the amount of housing.

But thats not the world we live in. We’ve had decades of leftists guilt tripping people with NIMBY movements by whining about gentrification, now you’re telling us we have to remove mortgages as a funding mechanism before we can break ground.

When is the time for you all to stop arguing and start DOING?

We need a more libertarian view on housing.
It's good that you're acknowledging your stance is Libertarian. I think Libertarianism is pretty stupid, and I can link you to countless examples of Sam debating Libertarians to show why it's dumb.
You focused on single family housing, not multi family housing and apartments. If everything is zoned for single families with minimum lot sizes, then thats all you will get.
The only reference to Single family vs Multi Family housing in the article we're discussing is Dayen saying how long it took for each style of housing to rebound and begin being built again after the housing market collapsed because of Abundance Agenda Policies that were applied in the 90's and 00's.
A “more robust solution” sounds like a branding exercise for professional pontificators.
A more robust solution just means, combining deregulation of certain zoning limitations with things like building subsidies and limitations on realtor monopolization. Abundance Agenda is LITERALLY a rebrand of deregulation that came out of Koch Brothers' think tanks. You're projecting.
Dayen’s business plan is to call out corporate grift. Dayen isn’t an urban planner or a city designer. Dayen isn’t interested in getting young people apartments and housing or doing everything possible to develop new places to live.

Dayen wants his readers to get mad at CEOs doing complex tax schemes and skimming off of rebates.
Ezra Klein is a city designer now? Nope. Dayen, Klein, and Thompson are all journalists.
More and more places keep proving this critique wrong. People want results.

Did you read this or were you stuck on the paywall? This is about policy changes that haven't been proven effective yet, because they're so new. This is straight from the second paragraph of the piece
"Cambride could certainly use the new units. Data from Zillow shows the city's average rent is $3400 a month - slightly higher than San Francisco's estimated average rent of $3200. Homelessness in Cambridge has also been on the rise, particularly since the pandemic."

So, the article goes on to point out genuine changes that they're making to try and address this. But if "People want results" this article ain't it. The policies will certainly increase capacity for building, but whether the building will happen enough to bring down prices completely remains to be see...which is where additional policy that encourages building would fit in.

Which gets right back to David Dayen saying "These viewpoints can be complementary, but only with open eyes" but you just want to argue and scream communist for some weird reason.
The housing bubble was because people were taking mortgages from corrupt loan terms and buying homes they couldn’t afford to maintain. The housing bubble had nothing to do with 1 bedroom apartments in dense urban cores.
You're making up shyt to argue with again. Dayen's claim is "During the housing bubble, bankers structured the market to their own ends, and it resulted in catastrophe." He says nothing about 1 bedroom apartments in dense urban cores. You're completely hung up on jargon and not arguing with what's actually been stated anywhere. The article you link doesn't support your claim, it's just another advertisement for policies that haven't been in place to prove whether or not they're effective.

You're just talking out your ass again. Like when you swore Eric Adams would be the next Democratic nominee for president, or when you thought Cuomo was saving NYC from a Republican takeover.

Anyway, here's your favorite podcaster debating Regulations with a caller (they get to building regulations and why they might be important pretty quickly):
 
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☑︎#VoteDemocrat

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I'm not a libertarian, so I don't assume any regulation is automatically communism.

Everyone acknowledges that some zoning restrictions need to be lifted. You're doing strawmen again. The argument is that blanket lifting of restrictions has problems, and won't resolve all of the issues of housing.
Ezra and Thompason didn’t say this either. You all freaked out at the mere discussion of mass reform of regulations, however
No one said anything Utopian.

It's good that you're acknowledging your stance is Libertarian. I think Libertarianism is pretty stupid, and I can link you to countless examples of Sam debating Libertarians to show why it's dumb.
I’m left libertarian. Like Michael Brooks.
The only reference to Single family vs Multi Family housing in the article we're discussing is Dayen saying how long it took for each style of housing to rebound and begin being built again after the housing market collapsed because of Abundance Agenda Policies that were applied in the 90's and 00's.
Yeah and urban rezoning waves are taking place now and multi families are going up.

The 08 crash was McMansions and single family homes
A more robust solution just means, combining deregulation of certain zoning limitations with things like building subsidies and limitations on realtor monopolization. Abundance Agenda is LITERALLY a rebrand of deregulation that came out of Koch Brothers' think tanks. You're projecting.
This is a minimization of the argument and an incomplete framing from antimonopolyists with agendas
Ezra Klein is a city designer now? Nope. Dayen, Klein, and Thompson are all journalists.
Dayen has never seriously tackled urban zoning. I read his work.
Did you read this or were you stuck on the paywall? This is about policy changes that haven't been proven effective yet, because they're so new. This is straight from the second paragraph of the piece
"Cambride could certainly use the new units. Data from Zillow shows the city's average rent is $3400 a month - slightly higher than San Francisco's estimated average rent of $3200. Homelessness in Cambridge has also been on the rise, particularly since the pandemic."
Did you read the end of the article about Minneapolis and Austin?
So, the article goes on to point out genuine changes that they're making to try and address this. But if "People want results" this article ain't it. The policies will certainly increase capacity for building, but whether the building will happen enough to bring down prices completely remains to be see...which is where additional policy that encourages building would fit in.
Supply brings down prices. 101 shyt.
Which gets right back to David Dayen saying "These viewpoints can be complementary, but only with open eyes" but you just want to argue and scream communist for some weird reason.

You're making up shyt to argue with again. Dayen's claim is "During the housing bubble, bankers structured the market to their own ends, and it resulted in catastrophe." He says nothing about 1 bedroom apartments in dense urban cores. You're completely hung up on jargon and not arguing with what's actually been stated anywhere. The article you link doesn't support your claim, it's just another advertisement for policies that haven't been in place to prove whether or not they're effective.
Single family McMansions aren’t the topic here.
You're just talking out your ass again. Like when you swore Eric Adams would be the next Democratic nominee for president, or when you thought Cuomo was saving NYC from a Republican takeover.

Anyway, here's your favorite podcaster debating Regulations with a caller (they get to building regulations and why they might be important pretty quickly):

You’re hand waving away failure from democrats to engage with economics of supply and demand for fear of being labeled as captured capitalists.
 

storyteller

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Dumbass waited three days to respond and said nothing relevant.



Here's Sam dunking on the Abundance Agenda again...

And here's a great article about it

State and local leaders in high-cost regions have begun taking up this libertarian cause. In 2019, Minneapolis became the first major U.S. city to end single-family exclusive zoning. The same year, Oregon became the first state in the nation to legalize duplexes, triplexes, and fourplexes—commonly known as “middle housing”—statewide. California in 2021 enacted a series of reforms, including laws that allow homeowners to split single-family lots and build multiple units, eliminate parking requirements near transit, and limit localities’ ability to block new housing development.

The movement to lift zoning restrictions is still new, but enough time has elapsed to begin to see how well it’s working, and the answer is … a little. Since Minneapolis pioneered the elimination of single-family zoning in 2019, 72 new duplexes and 37 triplexes (for a whopping total of 255 individual units) have been built. Los Angeles saw only 211 applications for multifamily construction in the year after the law getting rid of single-family zoning went into effect. A comprehensive study from the Urban Institute of land-use reforms across 1,136 cities from 2000 to 2019 found that they increased housing supply by only 0.8 percent within three to nine years of passage.

Why has broad zoning reform yielded such modest results, at least so far? The answer is that supply-side liberals didn’t fully consider the demand side of their policy.
“The demand for two-flats and four-flats in car-dependent residential neighborhoods dominated by single-family homes just isn’t that high,” says Chris Leinberger, a development consultant and professor emeritus of real estate at George Washington University. The urban policy expert Alan Ehrenhalt agrees. “The problem here is that developers won’t be flocking to build cheap housing on these properties,” he wrote in Governing magazine.
 
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