(The Root edition) Conquerors and slaves at the same time: the true history of black Moors

[MischievousMonkey]

I also posted the thread in the Locker Room to see whether or not it's more interesting to post these kinds of thread here or there.

I'm also collecting information about the Ancient Egyptian origins of the Wolof people. I'll do a thread about that too.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Seen the vid already. The uploader has some informations mixed up.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

Seen the vid already. The uploader has some informations mixed up.

Could you correct some of them please?

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Could you correct some of them please?

I definitely will when I get off from work.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

@MyopicEagle

I'm gonna give you the full depth. Because again I feel there are many strong errors he made. Some stuff he said were correct but the majority sounded almost Eurocentric on some "any Black person above the Sahara was a slave."

While the situation with the Haratin people is definitely sad, and those Arab-Berbers enslaving them need to be slaughtered, his whole video is emotionally filled. What I find funny is that he has no issues pardoning SOME Africans role in the Atlantic slave trade(no offense to you as a West African), but at the same time exaggerates the enslavement of Sub Sahara Blacks(prior to the 18th century) in Northwest Africa. Not only that he himself should know better to heavily use terms like "Black African"(which I feel is WORSE than SSA) but also to differentiate them from "Berbers" when the two AREN'T mutually exclusive. Which in another breath is almost Eurocentric. He should know better because in past videos he went on and on about how the Almoravid dynasty came from around the Senegal area. He even did some leaders on Moorish/Berber leaders ans saying they were Black. So by his logic it was Blacks enslaving Blacks. And not White Berbers. But this is not the main issue I even have, the biggest error and main issue I have is the point that he makes it seem like ANY and EVERY Black person during that time period in Iberia(or Sicily) was a SLAVE! Again, Eurocentric like talking point. He uses that ONE quote by Yusuf ibn Tashfin(which doesn't give numbers) while also forgetting to emphasize on that there was also white slaves. And during that time White slaves were more NUMEROUS. I posted this source a million times but anyways...

"Except for the Zandj (black slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world ...The high costs of slaves, because of the risks inherent in the desert crossing, which would have not permitted such a massive exodus ... In this connection, it is significant that in the Arabic iconography of the period, the slave merchant was often depicted as a man with a hole in his purse. Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third. "

- Africa from the Seventh to Eleventh Century, UNESCO, 1988

^^While this source also doesn't give exact numbers it goes into more depth. There was more White slaves(who eventually became their own Berber groups) who eventually outnumbered Black Berbers in Northwest Africa. We do NOT see White Berber groups like the Kabyle people until the 13th and 14th century which is way after Yusuf's period.

And btw Yusuf was a Sanhaja who were many of the Berber groups described as BLACK but I'll get to that later. So again, I don't get his Berber on Black African enslavement? And like most people who are not well versed in Moorish history he doesn't elaborate on WHICH Berber group he is referring to because the main Berber groups who invaded Iberia sine its beginning under the Caliphate were Saharan Berbers aka Black Berbers. One of the main Berber groups and my favorite one(and this was way before the Almoravids) were the Masmudas Berbers and they were the MAIN infantry of the caliphate. And this is how they were described.

The Masmuda or Masamida Berbers controlled the entirety of the western part of Maghreb or North West Africa between western Algeria and Morocco until the coming of another black population known as the Zanata Berbers of Botr, or El Abter stock. They also maintained power in many towns of Spain.

"Kel Owey girl of the Imakitan Tuareg"
A Kel Owey girl, member of the Imakitan Tuaregs (formerly called Ikitamen) now located in Niger and are known in Arab texts as the KITAMA or KUTAMA Berbers and anciently as the "Mauri" or "Ethiopian" colored people called Uacutameni, Micatateni or Mactunia manus. Centuries ago, the "Kutama branch of the Berbers inhabited the region of Little Kabylia" in Northern Algeria.

See UNESCO's Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century, Ivan Hrbek et al., 1992, p. 164.

With the exception of the bedouins, who were not part of the permanent military organization of the state, the Fatimid army was largely an infantry force composed of blacks. (Nasir-i Khusrau included the Masamida among the blacks)."

- Yaacov Lev, "State and Society in Fatimid Egypt", 1987, pp 94

I'm not gonna spam the Masmudas as I already have a shyt LOAD of material on them. But if you were to visit Fatimid controlled Iberia, the Masmuda Berbers would be the type of Berbers you'll mostly see. And again, this was WELL BEFORE the Almoravid dynasty. And also any rational/open minded Moroccan(like that Moroccan youtuber I use to speak with) would tell you Saharan Berbers invaded Moroccan and then Iberia but moving on.

Then we have the Sanhaja who were also a large Berber confederation who founded the Almoravid dynasty.

“The Berber women are from the Island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children.”

Gender and Sexuality in the Middle Ages by Martha A. Brozyna, 2005 p. 303.


So again, why the heck is he differentiating "Black Africans" from Berbers? Not only that but Hometeam doesn't realize that those Black Berbers were ALSO enslaved after the fall of the Moors and also faced discrimination in Morocco among the new and more numerous White Berbers and the Arab elite. And there were also riots between the groups(can't find a source on that). Second how do we even know many of the Sudanese(West African) soldiers were slaves? Because those Sahelian states were not only more militarily/politically more powerful than those Berber groups(and still are in that region OUTSIDE of Mauritania) but also had some hand in the invasion of Iberia based off this post.
Lets Talk African History:"Sahel" West African Civilizations

LASTLY... The mass enslavement of West Africans to the Trans Sahara trade mostly came during the 17th century. Thats mostly where the Haratin trace their slave ancestry but also SOME of them also have Sanhaja ancestry also. Not trying to deny the brutal treatment of the Haratin but to conclude that many of the Blacks in Iberia prior to the 16th century were slaves is dishonest and also Eurocentric.

If you want more info check out this thread here.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

@MyopicEagle

I'm gonna give you the full depth. Because again I feel there are many strong errors he made. Some stuff he said were correct but the majority sounded almost Eurocentric on some "any Black person above the Sahara was a slave."

While the situation with the Haratin people is definitely sad, and those Arab-Berbers enslaving them need to be slaughtered, his whole video is emotionally filled. What I find funny is that he has no issues pardoning SOME Africans role in the Atlantic slave trade(no offense to you as a West African), but at the same time exaggerates the enslavement of Sub Sahara Blacks(prior to the 18th century) in Northwest Africa. Not only that he himself should know better to heavily use terms like "Black African"(which I feel is WORSE than SSA) but also to differentiate them from "Berbers" when the two AREN'T mutually exclusive. Which in another breath is almost Eurocentric. He should know better because in past videos he went on and on about how the Almoravid dynasty came from around the Senegal area. He even did some leaders on Moorish/Berber leaders ans saying they were Black. So by his logic it was Blacks enslaving Blacks. And not White Berbers. But this is not the main issue I even have, the biggest error and main issue I have is the point that he makes it seem like ANY and EVERY Black person during that time period in Iberia(or Sicily) was a SLAVE! Again, Eurocentric like talking point. He uses that ONE quote by Yusuf ibn Tashfin(which doesn't give numbers) while also forgetting to emphasize on that there was also white slaves. And during that time White slaves were more NUMEROUS. I posted this source a million times but anyways...


- Africa from the Seventh to Eleventh Century, UNESCO, 1988

^^While this source also doesn't give exact numbers it goes into more depth. There was more White slaves(who eventually became their own Berber groups) who eventually outnumbered Black Berbers in Northwest Africa. We do NOT see White Berber groups like the Kabyle people until the 13th and 14th century which is way after Yusuf's period.

And btw Yusuf was a Sanhaja who were many of the Berber groups described as BLACK but I'll get to that later. So again, I don't get his Berber on Black African enslavement? And like most people who are not well versed in Moorish history he doesn't elaborate on WHICH Berber group he is referring to because the main Berber groups who invaded Iberia sine its beginning under the Caliphate were Saharan Berbers aka Black Berbers. One of the main Berber groups and my favorite one(and this was way before the Almoravids) were the Masmudas Berbers and they were the MAIN infantry of the caliphate. And this is how they were described.


See UNESCO's Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century, Ivan Hrbek et al., 1992, p. 164.


- Yaacov Lev, "State and Society in Fatimid Egypt", 1987, pp 94

I'm not gonna spam the Masmudas as I already have a shyt LOAD of material on them. But if you were to visit Fatimid controlled Iberia, the Masmuda Berbers would be the type of Berbers you'll mostly see. And again, this was WELL BEFORE the Almoravid dynasty. And also any rational/open minded Moroccan(like that Moroccan youtuber I use to speak with) would tell you Saharan Berbers invaded Moroccan and then Iberia but moving on.

Then we have the Sanhaja who were also a large Berber confederation who founded the Almoravid dynasty.

Gender and Sexuality in the Middle Ages by Martha A. Brozyna, 2005 p. 303.


So again, why the heck is he differentiating "Black Africans" from Berbers? Not only that but Hometeam doesn't realize that those Black Berbers were ALSO enslaved after the fall of the Moors and also faced discrimination in Morocco among the new and more numerous White Berbers and the Arab elite. And there were also riots between the groups(can't find a source on that). Second how do we even know many of the Sudanese(West African) soldiers were slaves? Because those Sahelian states were not only more militarily/politically more powerful than those Berber groups(and still are in that region OUTSIDE of Mauritania) but also had some hand in the invasion of Iberia based off this post.
Lets Talk African History:"Sahel" West African Civilizations

LASTLY... The mass enslavement of West Africans to the Trans Sahara trade mostly came during the 17th century. Thats mostly where the Haratin trace their slave ancestry but also SOME of them also have Sanhaja ancestry also. Not trying to deny the brutal treatment of the Haratin but to conclude that many of the Blacks in Iberia prior to the 16th century were slaves is dishonest and also Eurocentric.

If you want more info check out this thread here.

Breh... I wish I could rep this a thousand times. Thanks a lot for taking of your time to break this down like that.

I don't know much about the Moors at all, I'm just starting to learn about them because I was fed the eurocentric version of them until recently (my spanish teacher of not even two years ago was constantly referring to them as Arabs and I don't think she was just talking about their language).

You made excellent point and you referenced all of them with legit sources.

I don't know what THE fukk happened with HomeTeam History who usually (I have the impression) researches well his subjects.

I also peeped how emotional he was about the Haratins only and found it weird.


So what happened is that the Arabs that got more numerous in North Africa turned on the black berbers already present after the moorish fallout? And enslaved some/most of them?

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Breh... I wish I could rep this a thousand times. Thanks a lot for taking of your time to break this down like that.

I'm VERY knowledgeable about the Moors. They and Swahili history is what I know ALOT about compared to others on the internet. Not trying to brag. lol.

I don't know much about the Moors at all, I'm just starting to learn about them because I was fed the eurocentric version of them until recently (my spanish teacher of not even two years ago was constantly referring to them as Arabs and I don't think she was just talking about their language).

Moorish history is very complex and even confusing. Heck Northwest African history as a whole. But no they were NOT Arabs. Arabs were called something different by Europeans. Remember the term "Moor" predates Arabs. And also the term "Moor" is just... a term.

You made excellent point and you referenced all of them with legit sources.

A good amount were primary sources at that.

I don't know what THE fukk happened with HomeTeam History who usually (I have the impression) researches well his subjects.

Hometeam history is VERY VERY GOOD if you are new to African history and want basic info. I like the way he presents certain areas of African history. However, he is "off balance" in certain areas. I don't think he is well studied on the Moors. Heck many Afrocentrics/Africanist online who claim they LOVE the Moors aren't and that even includes Tariq Nasheed. They ALL fail to mention Berbers.

I also notice Hometeam NEVER addressed the Swahili civilization which is IMPORTANT when discussing African history prior to colonization.

I also peeped how emotional he was about the Haratins only and found it weird.

Agreed.

So what happened is that the Arabs that got more numerous in North Africa turned on the black berbers already present after the moorish fallout? And enslaved some/most of them?

This is the part where Euronuts have the advantage because people on the African side(us) fail to explain WHAT exactly happened in where we hardly see dark skinned Berbers as a majority in Northwest Africa.

Something like that. What people fail to understand is that Northwest Africa was sparsely populated. Outside of Carthage most of Northwest Africa was some backwater especially compared to West Africa. You had Black Saharan Berbers and mixed Atlas Berbers(from the time of the Vandals and other earlier invasions but they were a minority). Berbers were easily conquered by Arabs because they were spread out in a sparsely populated region.

But what REALLY happened was that there was MANY repeat MANY European slaves(whites and certain North Africans IGNORE this) who flooded places like Morocco and Algeria after the fall of the Moors. But then we had European converts to Islam in Iberia who were expelled to the Maghreb along with EVERY other Muslim. Those people soon outnumbered the indignous Berbers and some even becoming Berbers themselves! I.e Berber groups like the Kabyle but then we have sources like this....

890 –“The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Written in The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I 1890.

There are MANY sources detailing White slaves and expelled White Muslims in Northwest Africa. Heck the genetic structure of modern day Maghrebis is that of European women and African male ancestry showing male focused enslavement on non-African women. The African male ancestry mostly being E-M81 which is Berber but AFRICAN![/QUOTE]

 

[MischievousMonkey]

I'm VERY knowledgeable about the Moors. They and Swahili history is what I know ALOT about compared to others on the internet. Not trying to brag. lol.


Moorish history is very complex and even confusing. Heck Northwest African history as a whole. But no they were NOT Arabs. Arabs were called something different by Europeans. Remember the term "Moor" predates Arabs. And also the term "Moor" is just... a term.


A good amount were primary sources at that.



Hometeam history is VERY VERY GOOD if you are new to African history and want basic info. I like the way he presents certain areas of African history. However, he is "off balance" in certain areas. I don't think he is well studied on the Moors. Heck many Afrocentrics/Africanist online who claim they LOVE the Moors aren't and that even includes Tariq Nasheed. They ALL fail to mention Berbers.

I also notice Hometeam NEVER addressed the Swahili civilization which is IMPORTANT when discussing African history prior to colonization.


Agreed.



This is the part where Euronuts have the advantage because people on the African side(us) fail to explain WHAT exactly happened in where we hardly see dark skinned Berbers as a majority in Northwest Africa.

Something like that. What people fail to understand is that Northwest Africa was sparsely populated. Outside of Carthage most of Northwest Africa was some backwater especially compared to West Africa. You had Black Saharan Berbers and mixed Atlas Berbers(from the time of the Vandals and other earlier invasions but they were a minority). Berbers were easily conquered by Arabs because they were spread out in a sparsely populated region.

But what REALLY happened was that there was MANY repeat MANY European slaves(whites and certain North Africans IGNORE this) who flooded places like Morocco and Algeria after the fall of the Moors. But then we had European converts to Islam in Iberia who were expelled to the Maghreb along with EVERY other Muslim. Those people soon outnumbered the indignous Berbers and some even becoming Berbers themselves! I.e Berber groups like the Kabyle but then we have sources like this....

890 –“The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Written in The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I 1890.

There are MANY sources detailing White slaves and expelled White Muslims in Northwest Africa. Heck the genetic structure of modern day Maghrebis is that of European women and African male ancestry showing male focused enslavement on non-African women. The African male ancestry mostly being E-M81 which is Berber but AFRICAN!

[/QUOTE]
Thanks once again. Great info.

Actually I believe that french people had the terrible habit to call every muslim Sarrasins, from the Moors to the Persians, so most of my life when I heard about sarrasin invasion of Europe I imagined them all Arab.

I found a photograph of Black moors in Senegal dating from 1890, I'll post it when I find it.

I need to get on the Swahili's history. I know basically NOTHING about them.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Thanks once again. Great info.

Actually I believe that french people had the terrible habit to call every muslim Sarrasins, from the Moors to the Persians, so most of my life when I heard about sarrasin invasion of Europe I imagined them all Arab.

I found a photograph of Black moors in Senegal dating from 1890, I'll post it when I find it.

I need to get on the Swahili's history. I know basically NOTHING about them.

I would check out this thread which imo has the best collective info about the Swahili civilization on the net.

Lets Talk African History: The Swahili Coast

I'm most likely in the TOP 5 on the entire net when it comes to knowledge on the Swahili coast and I say that with a straight face. I'm most likely in the top 30 when it comes to the Moors.

Anyways, to me the Swahilis were literally the Moors of East Africa. While Saharan Berbers were the Moors of Western Africa.

 

[Dzali OG]

I would check out this thread which imo has the best collective info about the Swahili civilization on the net.

Lets Talk African History: The Swahili Coast

I'm most likely in the TOP 5 on the entire net when it comes to knowledge on the Swahili coast and I say that with a straight face. I'm most likely in the top 30 when it comes to the Moors.

Anyways, to me the Swahilis were literally the Moors of East Africa. While Saharan Berbers were the Moors of Western Africa.

What most people don't notice, and should be obvious, is the black man's smashing of euro women. I believe with the moors, as with egypt, africans basically bred themselves into servitude.

It has happened ALL OVER THIS PLANET. The peoples of a land are black, encounter "white people" and begin breeding with them. Breed with them to the point that the resulting mulatto (early asian, berber, arab, puerto rican, etc.,) outnumber and betray the black fathers.

It's being attempted here in America even.

Concerning your info on moors and berbers, take into account euros propensity for culture appropriation. I definitely can see thousands of white slaves flooding north africa and throwing on the dress of berbers, adopting their culture, considering themselves berbers, and outcasting the original black berbers. Just consider hip hop. In a hundred years eminem will be the starter and greatest hip hop icon, and only white or mulatto rappers will be acknowledged. Another 1000 years...all information regarding black rappers will be erased or forgotten. 1500 years from now, people will be debating whether there were any black rappers and their CONTRIBUTION to hip hop!

I used hip hop as a poor example, but what I typed should form a picture in someones head. I described an almost science fiction invasion strategy. An organism that excels at infiltrating, imitating, and then replacing the original.