There is no such thing as a ‘talent’ or ‘eye test’ argument for Brady vs Mahomes

Braman

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What’s happening is people are applying a Bron vs Jordan mindset and applying it to Mahomes vs Brady. This is stupid for many reasons

1- In hoops, players can play noticeably different. Visually different. Statistically different. There is enough nuance that, one can value points over assists, one can value defense, Playmaking vs scoring, etc. There are enough differences where it can be more subjective

With football, this is not the case. No matter how “talented” a QB is, a 10 yard out is a 10 yard out. A deep crosser is a deep crosser. The concept of a QB finding open men and passing to them is too straightforward, so “talent” cannot manifest at the QB position (for non rushing QBs)

Example, Kyrie is perhaps the most “talented” PG ever. You can SEE it. Hoops is played in a way that he can physically do things outside the box that others can’t. On a nightly basis. For non rushing QBs, this doesn’t exist. In the course of a game, season, hell career, there are only a handful of plays that are genuinely outside the box that displays abnormal “talent”. Ie a throw across the field, or a 70 yard bomb, a no look, etc. The problem is, not only is it far and few between based on how the game is played and defended, but also many QBs can do that. Matt Stafford was doing no looks before Mahomes. Baker mayfield owns the record for longest air yard pass.

Yet these are the type of ambiguous ‘tAlEnt’ arguments people make for Mahomes…it’s even funnier now considering that they no longer play like that :wtf:

2- There is only 1 path to goat for QBs that’s rings. It is not the same as NBA. Now I could definitely see if someone wants to discount Brady’s first two. Bc he was a game manager. Cool. He still has 5 left :snoop:WHILE putting up gaudy stats. This shouldn’t even be an argument. It only is bc 24/7 news culture has fried peoples brain and no one has the patience to see if Mahomes willcatch Brady, they want the immediate debate even when the count is 7 rings to 2.
 

murksiderock

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The Jordan/Bron "skill" thing is dishonest too because LeBron clearly does as many basketball skills better than Jordan, as Jordan had skills better than Bron, yet most people still favor Jordan over Bron...

In 35-40 years of NBA history befire Jordan Propaganda consumed The Culture, GOAT-level players were NEVER judged by "who has the most rings". It was not that rudimentary. Jordan Propaganda took over Basketball Culture, and disingenuously fooled people into ring counting, something not rooted in NBA history, nor was it even honest with Jordan as he has nowhere near the most championships ever...

Jordan nikkas created this ring counting bullshyt, but when you point out Russell to them, you get the "look at Russell's era" shyt, downplaying the competition Russell played against in Jordan's favor, pointing out that Jordan was a better basketball player while playing better opponents in a more skilled era. And that opens up more inconsistency from Jordan heads, who always have this one set of rules that apply to Jordan but aren't consistent across the board------>because LeBron very clearly played vs better competition, in a more stacked era, with more skilled players across the board, and the "talent/skill" shyt is a wash because both did a variety of different things better than the other one; I could easily make an argument that Bron does more things better...

You know, the same argument Mike nikkas use against Bill Russell. So it's never consistent, rings only matter to Jordan heads if Jordan has more than the person being compared to him, but if the one guy has more rings, oh it's not about rings anymore, its shyt on that era, tell me who was a better basketball player...

I'm saying all that as a preface, that this Brady/Mahomes debate is the same thing in reverse, with instead of most people favoring the OG, they are favoring the young guy over the guy from the past...

I'm consistent with this----->I don't care about who has the flashier skillset, who may be more skilled. I don't care to count rings. Pat doesn't need 7 to be considered better than Brady to me. Or 6, and maybe not even 5. It's about the degree of dominance, how long you sustain that dominance, and how you perform in the playoffs. You have to win rings along the way, nobody is in the GOAT QB convo with fewer than 2 rings; Pat already has 2 and could hit 3 in 10 days. Clearly, you have to win rings to enter the convo and he's doing that...

But I'm never on the, "gotta be _____ (amount of) rings". That shyt don't matter...

But what we keep hearing from Mahomes Stan's are, man he's way more talented than Brady. Look at the throws Mahomes can make, the trick plays. Look at how he keeps plays alive from outside the pocket, while also dominating as a pocket thrower. All this extra shyt...

We saw Brady dominate year over year for decades. To really threaten Brady you gotta threaten that longevity, Brady had about a 15-year prime. You gotta have some of the performances Brady had, Mahomes' best Suoer Bowl was last year and he was terrific but I can think of three Brady Super Bowls better than Mahomes' best. That's what Mahomes is competing against..
 

murksiderock

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Mahomes is the Jordan of his sport
Did Jordan ever have a Finals that he was bad for three-quarters of the series (Mahomes in the SB54 he won)? Did Jordan ever have a Finals that he was bad the entire series (SB55 Mahomes lost)? Did Jordan ever lose a Finals?

Is this Jordan-esque, on the biggest stage?


Aside from all of this, Jordan was Jordan because not only was there a gap in how much he won compared to his peers, there was a seismic talent gap to whoever #2 was. There isn't a seismic talent gap between Mahomes and Allen or Burrow...
 

Primetime21

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Did Jordan ever have a Finals that he was bad for three-quarters of the series (Mahomes in the SB54 he won)? Did Jordan ever have a Finals that he was bad the entire series (SB55 Mahomes lost)? Did Jordan ever lose a Finals?

Is this Jordan-esque, on the biggest stage?


Aside from all of this, Jordan was Jordan because not only was there a gap in how much he won compared to his peers, there was a seismic talent gap to whoever #2 was. There isn't a seismic talent gap between Mahomes and Allen or Burrow...
Bron Stan propaganda babble. Look at his postseason resume. Among his contemporaries no one even breathes the same air.
 

Based Lord Zedd

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This shouldn’t even be an argument. It only is bc 24/7 news culture has fried peoples brain and no one has the patience to see if Mahomes willcatch Brady, they want the immediate debate even when the count is 7 rings to 2.

It shouldn't be an argument because it doesn't matter. The argument to push Mahomes over Brady is simply the league (and the media who also profits) promoting themselves. They want us glued to the screen watching Mahomes chase Brady.

Determining GOAT QB off of rings is flawed to begin with.

As good as Mahomes is individually, KC defense held teams averaging 29, 28, and 27 to 41 total points with 2 of those games being on the road. That's a major advantage in a team game and wins are team accomplishments.

Also I saw this image the other day and thought it was hilarious and also appropriate here.

ckgx83zskgfc1.jpeg
 

Braman

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Determining GOAT QB off of rings is flawed to begin with.

The problem with this is, this ain’t basketball.

If it were basketball yea Russell has 11, a few other role players have just as many as MJ, Magic has 5, etc etc it’s too many moving parts

With QB? Brady has SEVEN. Ain’t no movin parts. :heh: You need to get in that ballpark to even start that discussion.

Can’t be about numbers bc based on Mahomes’ $ and Kelce’s age, it’s not likely they will have a high scoring offense like they’ve had before. Plus the defense is young. And Brady closed out his career putting up numbers anyway so….

That leads to the million dollar question:

What argument does Mahomes with 3 or 4 rings have over Brady with 7?
 

fifth column

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The Jordan/Bron "skill" thing is dishonest too because LeBron clearly does as many basketball skills better than Jordan, as Jordan had skills better than Bron, yet most people still favor Jordan over Bron...

In 35-40 years of NBA history befire Jordan Propaganda consumed The Culture, GOAT-level players were NEVER judged by "who has the most rings". It was not that rudimentary. Jordan Propaganda took over Basketball Culture, and disingenuously fooled people into ring counting, something not rooted in NBA history, nor was it even honest with Jordan as he has nowhere near the most championships ever...

Jordan nikkas created this ring counting bullshyt, but when you point out Russell to them, you get the "look at Russell's era" shyt, downplaying the competition Russell played against in Jordan's favor, pointing out that Jordan was a better basketball player while playing better opponents in a more skilled era. And that opens up more inconsistency from Jordan heads, who always have this one set of rules that apply to Jordan but aren't consistent across the board------>because LeBron very clearly played vs better competition, in a more stacked era, with more skilled players across the board, and the "talent/skill" shyt is a wash because both did a variety of different things better than the other one; I could easily make an argument that Bron does more things better...

You know, the same argument Mike nikkas use against Bill Russell. So it's never consistent, rings only matter to Jordan heads if Jordan has more than the person being compared to him, but if the one guy has more rings, oh it's not about rings anymore, its shyt on that era, tell me who was a better basketball player...

I'm saying all that as a preface, that this Brady/Mahomes debate is the same thing in reverse, with instead of most people favoring the OG, they are favoring the young guy over the guy from the past...

I'm consistent with this----->I don't care about who has the flashier skillset, who may be more skilled. I don't care to count rings. Pat doesn't need 7 to be considered better than Brady to me. Or 6, and maybe not even 5. It's about the degree of dominance, how long you sustain that dominance, and how you perform in the playoffs. You have to win rings along the way, nobody is in the GOAT QB convo with fewer than 2 rings; Pat already has 2 and could hit 3 in 10 days. Clearly, you have to win rings to enter the convo and he's doing that...

But I'm never on the, "gotta be _____ (amount of) rings". That shyt don't matter...

But what we keep hearing from Mahomes Stan's are, man he's way more talented than Brady. Look at the throws Mahomes can make, the trick plays. Look at how he keeps plays alive from outside the pocket, while also dominating as a pocket thrower. All this extra shyt...

We saw Brady dominate year over year for decades. To really threaten Brady you gotta threaten that longevity, Brady had about a 15-year prime. You gotta have some of the performances Brady had, Mahomes' best Suoer Bowl was last year and he was terrific but I can think of three Brady Super Bowls better than Mahomes' best. That's what Mahomes is competing against..
Lebron himself clearly bought into the “MJ propaganda” cause he seems to be consumed with passing him. Lebron is an MJ stan
 

fifth column

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The problem with this is, this ain’t basketball.

If it were basketball yea Russell has 11, a few other role players have just as many as MJ, Magic has 5, etc etc it’s too many moving parts

With QB? Brady has SEVEN. Ain’t no movin parts. :heh: You need to get in that ballpark to even start that discussion.

Can’t be about numbers bc based on Mahomes’ $ and Kelce’s age, it’s not likely they will have a high scoring offense like they’ve had before. Plus the defense is young. And Brady closed out his career putting up numbers anyway so….

That leads to the million dollar question:

What argument does Mahomes with 3 or 4 rings have over Brady with 7?
There is no moving parts with basketball. Rings are important to the legacy of great players who led their teams not role players. The point of playing sports is to crown a champion, it ain’t a beauty pageant
 

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I saw Dan Marino move within the pocket to manipulate defenders, help his linemen, and give receivers time to get open, then unleash a missile down the field.

That's something few quarterbacks have the ability to do consistently.

And I saw him do it for years.

I don't believe in an "eye test" within the modern context because that phrase has become warped over time as an excuse for morons who don't want to learn about objective metrics that measure performance.

But there is -- admittedly with some level of bias and unreliability -- some value to that so-called eye test.
 

Braman

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There is no moving parts with basketball. Rings are important to the legacy of great players who led their teams not role players. The point of playing sports is to crown a champion, it ain’t a beauty pageant

Clearly there is. Even a non role player, all time great can have more chips than another all time great but not be considered better

The OBVIOUS example is Jordan > Bill Russell despite having 5 less rings

Also, as much as Kobe fans hate it, Bron > Kobe despite having 1 less

In the QB discussion that doesn’t exists bc 1) Brady has set the mark so high, and 2) there are no other players with comparable rings.

Crazy to think about it but at one out we thought it COULD be like hoops, when the debate was Manning and Brady. Brady just had better teams but manning had better numbers. At one point you could argue Manning > Brady even with less rings.

Well, Brady blew that out the water when he started putting up gaudy numbers himself, and when he won 4,5 more rings. The debate ended
 
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