Thomas Sowell: How Republicans can woo the black vote

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

This is such a smoke screen issue. Stanford did a big ass study on charters and concluded that most of them perform exactly the same as area public schools. But that won't stop the charter cheerleaders, though. What a waste.

Lol@ abstract choice being better than performance.

I mean I tried to be respectable with dude... I thought maybe that would yield some good exchange... its clear @theworldismine13 is more interested in just pushing his views onto everybody. Charter schools may have advantages but he hasn't really made a case for em.

I mean IMO if there is a problem, seems to make the most sense to address the problems directly, than to get into pointless meaningless discussions on ideologies and philosophies. The schools suck. Let's fix them.

 

[theworldismine13]

I mean I tried to be respectable with dude... I thought maybe that would yield some good exchange... its clear @theworldismine13 is more interested in just pushing his views onto everybody. Charter schools may have advantages but he hasn't really made a case for em.

I mean IMO if there is a problem, seems to make the most sense to address the problems directly, than to get into pointless meaningless discussions on ideologies and philosophies. The schools suck. Let's fix them.

in other words you dont really have any ideas, saying we need to fix the schools isnt saying anything

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

in other words you dont really have any ideas, saying we need to fix the schools isnt saying anything

I do have ideas, and I've stated them ad nauseum in great detail

All you do in discussions about public schools is scream "CHARTER CHARTER CHARTER" with no kinds of details on how exactly that would work, or how your solution would deal with the obvious problems . I.e. if everyone could choose whatever school they wanted, and none of the schools were held to any standards, everyone would just try and flood the best schools and leave the rest in the lurch. I dont see how that makes more sense than, say, having all public schools operate at a certain standard, and cutting all the bureaucratic red tape

But keep screaming "CHARTER" like a fukking idiot. I gave it a fair shake.

 

[theworldismine13]

This is such a smoke screen issue. Stanford did a big ass study on charters and concluded that most of them perform exactly the same as area public schools. But that won't stop the charter cheerleaders, though. What a waste.

Lol@ abstract choice being better than performance.

i already busted yo in spreading lies about urban prep

the stanford study did do a big ass study and found that charter schools perform better

here is the link you can read it yourself

Synthesis and Conclusions
Based on the findings presented here, the typical student in New York City charter
schools gains more learning in a year than his TPS counterparts, amounting to one
month of additional gains in reading and five months in math. The learning
advantage in Harlem equates to less than a full month of additional learning in
reading but an additional seven months of progress in math. These outcomes are
consistent with the result that charter schools have significantly better results than
TPS for minority students who are in poverty, with more pronounced impacts in
math than in reading.
A substantial share of New York City charter schools appear to outpace TPS in how
well they support academic learning gains in their students in both reading and
math. About 22 percent of New York City charters outpace the learning impacts of
TPS in reading, and 63 percent do so in math. Only a few of the schools included in
the study have academic results that are significantly worse than their TPS
counterparts in math (about 14 percent), while one-quarter of charter schools
underperform compared to their local markets in reading.

 

[The Real]

i laready busted yo in spreading lies about urban prep

the stanford study did do a big ass study and found that charter schools perform better

here is the link you can read it yourself

You keep saying that, but you still haven't specified what this "lie" supposedly was. There are stats for all the points I made.

As for your selective quoting, my point stands- most charters still perform the same as or worse than public schools. Claiming the minority of schools that perform better as a victory for charters on the whole while pretending the failures don't exist is disingenuous and relatively embarrassing.

Study: Majority of U.S. charter schools perform equal or worse than traditional schools | Deseret News

SALT LAKE CITY — A new study of 26 states, including Utah, suggests that charter schools have made modest gains in student performance but have not yet surpassed their traditional school counterparts en masse.

In the study, released Tuesday by the Center for Research on Education Outcomes at Stanford University, researchers found that charter schools had improved since a similar study in 2009, but noted that those gains were partly due to the closure of underperforming charter schools.

"The results reveal that the charter school sector is getting better on average and that charter schools are benefiting low-income, disadvantaged and special education students,” said Margaret Raymond, director of CREDO at Stanford University. “As welcome as these changes are, more work remains to be done to ensure that all charter schools provide their students high-quality education.”

In the 26 states that participated in the study, which together account for 95 percent of the nation's charter school students, researchers again found that most charter schools are performing no better, if not worse, than their traditional school counterparts in reading and mathematics, based on standardized tests.

Nationwide, 25 percent of charter schools show significantly stronger learning gains in reading than their traditional school counterparts. The remaining 75 percent of charter schools showed either no signficant difference or were significantly weaker than traditional schools.

In math, 29 percent of charter schools outperform their traditional counterparts, with 40 percent showing no difference and 31 percent posting learning gains signficantly weaker than traditional schools.

 

[theworldismine13]

I do have ideas, and I've stated them ad nauseum in great detail

All you do in discussions about public schools is scream "CHARTER CHARTER CHARTER" with no kinds of details on how exactly that would work, or how your solution would deal with the obvious problems . I.e. if everyone could choose whatever school they wanted, and none of the schools were held to any standards, everyone would just try and flood the best schools and leave the rest in the lurch. I dont see how that makes more sense than, say, having all public schools operate at a certain standard, and cutting all the bureaucratic red tape

But keep screaming "CHARTER" like a fukking idiot. I gave it a fair shake.

you havent detailed anything ad neuseum, and anybody reading the thread can see that you havent, you solution to fix the schools is to..............fix the schools


and the idea is to leave bad schools in a lurch, that is the whole point, if parents dont like the school then the school should be shut down, and the point of having an open system is that anybody would be able to open up a school so when schools shut down other schools will open up, and most importantly these new schools can be opened up by black educators

nothing im saying is theoretical its already happening in new orleans where they are turning the entire system into charters and vouchers

New Orleans goes all in on charter schools.
New Orleans goes all in on charter schools. Is it showing the way? - CSMonitor.com

what the hell does that mean "having all public schools operate at a certain standard," that is a generic meaningless statement, is this what you are referring to when you say you have stated your ideas ad nausea?

and i was the one that brought up cutting up the bureaucracy, and i also explained that charters are important for that very reason, in other words i dont just say 'cut bureaucratic tape', unlike you i explain how it will be done and you inadvertently made my point by posting an article on how a charter school was able to fix a bathroom in the same school with the same demographic as another public school

 

[theworldismine13]

You keep saying that, but you still haven't specified what this "lie" supposedly was. There are stats for all the points I made.

As for your selective quoting, my point stands- most charters still perform the same as or worse than public schools. Claiming the minority of schools that perform better as a victory for charters on the whole while pretending the failures don't exist is disingenuous and relatively embarrassing.

Study: Majority of U.S. charter schools perform equal or worse than traditional schools | Deseret News

SALT LAKE CITY — A new study of 26 states, including Utah, suggests that charter schools have made modest gains in student performance but have not yet surpassed their traditional school counterparts en masse.

In the study, released Tuesday by the Center for Research on Education Outcomes at Stanford University, researchers found that charter schools had improved since a similar study in 2009, but noted that those gains were partly due to the closure of underperforming charter schools.

"The results reveal that the charter school sector is getting better on average and that charter schools are benefiting low-income, disadvantaged and special education students,” said Margaret Raymond, director of CREDO at Stanford University. “As welcome as these changes are, more work remains to be done to ensure that all charter schools provide their students high-quality education.”

In the 26 states that participated in the study, which together account for 95 percent of the nation's charter school students, researchers again found that most charter schools are performing no better, if not worse, than their traditional school counterparts in reading and mathematics, based on standardized tests.

Nationwide, 25 percent of charter schools show significantly stronger learning gains in reading than their traditional school counterparts. The remaining 75 percent of charter schools showed either no signficant difference or were significantly weaker than traditional schools.

In math, 29 percent of charter schools outperform their traditional counterparts, with 40 percent showing no difference and 31 percent posting learning gains signficantly weaker than traditional schools.

its not so much a lie, its that you distorted statistics, you tried to say that 1/3 dropping out of urban prep is somehow bad, when in reality 1/3 dropout rate is actually a 70% graduation rate, which is good for that particular demographic

as for your link the only relevant information in it is this

Charter school attendance was found to be the most beneficial for minority students, English language learners and students who live in poverty. Black charter school students were found to gain an equivalent of 14 extra days of learning in both math and reading, with English language learners gaining 36 days in both subjects over their traditional school peers.

 

[The Real]

its not so much a lie, its that you distorted statistics, you tried to say that 1/3 dropping out of urban prep is somehow bad, when in reality 1/3 dropout rate is actually a 70% graduation rate, which is good for that particular demographic

as for your link the only relevant information in it is this

First of all, I amended my statement- it was actually 50%, not one 1/3, meaning about a 50% graduation rate. The citations for that are in the same thread.

Second, the part you quoted is subject to all the same problems and deception outlined in the Urban Prep thread, and furthermore doesn't support your argument that Charters should replace public schools completely, since that success is parasitic on the failures of poorly funded urban public schools, and also isn't producing results that are better than those of good public schools.

 

[theworldismine13]

First of all, I amended my statement- it was actually 50%, not one 1/3, meaning about a 50% graduation rate. The citations for that are in the same thread.

Second, the part you quoted is subject to all the same problems and deception outlined in the Urban Prep thread, and furthermore doesn't support your argument that Charters should replace public schools completely, since that success is parasitic on the failures of poorly funded urban public schools, and also isn't producing results that are better than those of good public schools.

i looked i never saw any citation for the 50%, feel free to post it, and even if you amended it was shady statement to begin with, amending you statement doesnt change anything

and i already debunked you feeble assertions in the urban prep thread, there arent any problems or any deceptions in this statement or in urban prep, the statistics clearly show that black students do better in charter schools

the article you linked to was from utah and a lot of white students are included in the study, that is why its important to look at the relevant information, which is how black students are doing, and the whole point of charters is to eliminate and replace "poorly funded urban public schools", and the charter schools are producing better results for black students

 

[The Real]

i looked i never saw any citation for the 50%, feel free to post it, and even if you amended it was shady statement to begin with, amending you statement doesnt change anything

and i already debunked you feeble assertions in the urban prep thread, there arent any problems or any deceptions in this statement or in urban prep, the statistics clearly show that black students do better in charter schools

the article you linked to was from utah and a lot of white students are included in the study, that is why its important to look at the relevant information, which is how black students are doing, and the whole point of charters is to eliminate and replace "poorly funded urban public schools", and the charter schools are producing better results for black students

The article I linked to cited the exact same Stanford study of 26 states you cited. Clearly you didn't bother even looking at it.

Again, all the problems remain. Go look at that Urban Prep thread again. The link to the stats and the interview where Urban Prep themselves admit that it's 50% are there.

 

[theworldismine13]

The article I linked to cited the exact same Stanford study of 26 states you cited. Clearly you didn't bother even looking at it.

Again, all the problems remain. Go look at that Urban Prep thread again. The link to the stats and the interview where Urban Prep themselves admit that it's 50% are there.

i know that its all 26 states which means the study includes a lot of white students which are irrelevant, the only relevant information is how black students are doing

the only reference i saw to 50 percent was that in the first year of urban prep it was 56%, i dont see how that means anything significant if they then brought it up to 70%, with a 100% college acceptance rate

 

[The Real]

i know that its all 26 states which means the study includes a lot of white students which are irrelevant, the only relevant information is how black students are doing

the only reference i saw to 50 percent was that in the first year of urban prep it was 56%, i dont see how that means anything significant if they then brought it up to 70%, with a 100% college acceptance rate

You specifically said that charters should replace public schools, period. If you want to make that argument, Black students isn't enough. Even if you focus only on Black students, the point is that then charters themselves are not the solution, which is clear when you look at the other demographics. Either way, which ever one of the two arguments you're flip-flopping between is invalid.

 

[theworldismine13]

You specifically said that charters should replace public schools, period. If you want to make that argument, Black students isn't enough. Even if you focus only on Black students, the point is that then charters themselves are not the solution, which is clear when you look at the other demographics. Either way, which ever one of the two arguments you're flip-flopping between is invalid.

my bad on not clarifying that, im just referring to black students and black communities, im not flip flopping i thought it was clear that im just referring to black communities, the hood if you will, how other places want to improve their schools is on them, if they want to keep their public schools thats on them and the concept of school choice is important even withing equally performing schools

but anyways

how charters perform in comparison to public schools with non black people isnt relevant, because my premise is that the reason why black students perform bad in the first place is because of the anti academic culture at home, so you need a system that addresses that, the traditional public system doesnt address culture, charters and private schools do address culture that is why black students perform better in charter schools

 

[Blackking]

get the bureaucracy out of the system

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

Dude is fukking autistic, I'm convinced.