What's Jordan's legacy had Len Bias never pass away

[C-Styles]

Think about it, This kid was destined to be an all star at the very least! He had a bright future ahead of him and with Bird and McHale as his teammates, The Celtics would've been contenders for at least a little longer than what they were. This raises the question, Does Michael win less championships? Is the eastern conference even more competitive with the Knicks being in the mix as well as the pacers? Or does Jordan continue running through the east and win his titles??

 

[DrexlersFade]

 

[hayesc0]

Trash thread

 

[inndaskKy]

If the Celtics' reign would've lasted a little longer, wouldn't that impact the Bad Boy Pistons more than MJ?

 

[Noah]

Hard to say. Bird said he would've retired soon after '86-'87 had Bias not died; said something to the effect of his body was really starting to fail him & he wanted to make room for the kid. I'll link at the bottom of the post but Bird says he would've retired after 1988. Taking this into consideration the Celtics arguably still don't win any titles after '86. But again who knows because Bias could've been what they needed vs. the Lakers (especially in '87) and the Pistons, teams with better depth and younger stars by that point.

Think Jordan is probably still Jordan; however good Bias may have ended up being doesn't change how Michael and the Bulls developed into the 1990s and I don't know that it changes much about how mediocre the Celtics were for most of the 90s. Really impossible to quantify how the presence of Bias impacts the rest of the league because he didn't even get a chance.

Link to what Bird said:

shyt really makes you wonder if they would've been all healthy for the '87 Finals including Bias

 

[Professor Emeritus]

If anyone lost it was gonna be the Pistons, not the Bulls. Bird wasn't gonna be out there taking rings in the 1990s.

The big "what if" is what if the USSR had released Sabonis to the Blazers before they destroyed his knees. THAT is a player who could have single-handedly wrecked some of Jordan's title hopes.

Blazers went to 6 with the Bulls in 1992 with a worthless Kevin Duckworth at the 5. How many titles would they have won from 1990-1996 with a prime Sabonis in that spot instead?

Detlef Schrempf said repeatedly that if Sabonis had been allowed in the league, he would be the best player in the NBA. He was seeing him play in person in Europe and calling him straight-up better than anyone in the league while Jordan, Magic, and Bird were all playing. Donnie Nelson said he was a more athletic Bill Walton with a better shot. George Karl said he was the best guy in the world outside the NBA and the guy any NBA team needed to chase if they wanted to win a title. P.J. Carlesimo said there was no limit to how good he could have been. Bob Whitsitt is the one who scouted and recruited him, and he said he could have had a Jordan-like impact on the game. And Bill Walton himself?

Walton first saw Sabonis as a 19-year-old in the European championships. “He probably had a quadruple-double at halftime, and his coach, Alexander Gomelsky, didn’t even start him in the second half,” Walton said in a telephone call. “We looked at each other, our jaws just dropping, and I said, ‘You might as well just rewrite the rules of basketball after watching him play for just the first half,’ the first time I ever saw him. When you think of the history of basketball, the rules were changed to make it harder for three guys: Russell, Wilt, and Kareem. All the other rules have been changed to make it easier.

“He could do everything. He had the skills of Larry Bird and Pete Maravich. He had the athleticism of Kareem, and he could shoot the 3-point shot. He could pass and run the floor, dribble. We should have carried out a plan in the early 1980s to kidnap him and bring him back right then.”

This video is misleading because he was actually injured for a lot of the games they show here (he played the entire 1988 Olympics injured), but watch an injured Sabonis giving that work to David Robinson. Sabonis is basically the reason the Dream Team had to be created.




Even old, hobbled Sabonis could give the Bulls that work:



Those Nike calls MJ was getting at 3:10 and 5:32 though.



All sorts of guys big-upping Sabonis:





Adding Sabonis to those 1990s Blazers teams would have been almost on the level of a Durant to the Warriors level impact. The Blazers were already 60+ game winners and a contender with a terrible center, now they'd be wiping the floor with one of the best centers in the league. Look at how awful the teams were that were built around Hakeem and Robinson at the time, then imagine Drexler, Porter, Kersey, Buck, Cliff Robinson, Danny Ainge, and Drazen Petrovic with Sabonis in the middle.

 

[C-Styles]

Sabonis was another bullet we dodged

Sometimes the stars and planets gotta be aligned just right to have everything going for you

but in all seriousness, I think MJ still gets those rings regardless. His will was just too much

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Sabonis was another bullet we dodged

Sometimes the stars and planets gotta be aligned just right to have everything going for you

but in all seriousness, I think MJ still gets those rings regardless. His will was just too much

That narrative was bs.

Blazers were killing the Bulls in Game 6 until Pippen and 4 bench-warmers mounted a huge comeback. They were down 17 in the fourth when Jordan went to the pine for five minutes, what if Portland had gone on a run and been up 25 when Jordan came back in? That game would have been over and it would have been on to Game 7.





Same in 1993 - if Paxson doesn't hit that game-winner in Game 6, that series goes to 7 as well.

Same in 1996 - Jordan was 5-19 with 5 turnovers in Game 6, if the refs hadn't been letting the Bulls get away with murder on defense all game, if Kemp isn't fouling out on the other end, if the Sonics aren't 5-24 from three, if Scottie, Harper, and Kukoc weren't nailing threes, that series goes to 7 as well.

Same in 1997 - Jordan had an open bunny from 8 feet and passed out to Kerr for a 15-footer to win the game instead. Otherwise that series might have gone to 7 too.

Even the Game 7 against the Pacers that year, did Jordan even hit a single shot in the 4th quarter? He might have had one early, maybe. It was Kukoc that single-handedly kept them in the game in the 3rd, and then Pippen and Kerr who hit the big shots down the stretch in the 4th. I just remember Jordan getting stripped clean and then totally bailed out by the refs with a "jump ball" call.

Of the 5-6 biggest games of Jordan's career, he had to be bailed out by his teammates in the biggest moment in all but one of them. Saying that Jordan was winning with willpower alone is a total Nike myth.

 

[BXKingPin82]

MJ was in the womb thinking of ways to eat these NBA players hearts.

fukk outa here with all this silly shyt.

 

[DropTopDoc]

If the Celtics' reign would've lasted a little longer, wouldn't that impact the Bad Boy Pistons more than MJ?

That’s the real question, it really didn’t effect Jordan, but it would have been nice to see bias do work

Hard to say. Bird said he would've retired soon after '86-'87 had Bias not died; said something to the effect of his body was really starting to fail him & he wanted to make room for the kid. I'll link at the bottom of the post but Bird says he would've retired after 1988. Taking this into consideration the Celtics arguably still don't win any titles after '86. But again who knows because Bias could've been what they needed vs. the Lakers (especially in '87) and the Pistons, teams with better depth and younger stars by that point.

Think Jordan is probably still Jordan; however good Bias may have ended up being doesn't change how Michael and the Bulls developed into the 1990s and I don't know that it changes much about how mediocre the Celtics were for most of the 90s. Really impossible to quantify how the presence of Bias impacts the rest of the league because he didn't even get a chance.

Link to what Bird said:

shyt really makes you wonder if they would've been all healthy for the '87 Finals including Bias

Pretty much this, great post man

If anyone lost it was gonna be the Pistons, not the Bulls. Bird wasn't gonna be out there taking rings in the 1990s.

The big "what if" is what if the USSR had released Sabonis to the Blazers before they destroyed his knees. THAT is a player who could have single-handedly wrecked some of Jordan's title hopes.

Blazers went to 6 with the Bulls in 1992 with a worthless Kevin Duckworth at the 5. How many titles would they have won from 1990-1996 with a prime Sabonis in that spot instead?

Detlef Schrempf said repeatedly that if Sabonis had been allowed in the league, he would be the best player in the NBA. He was seeing him play in person in Europe and calling him straight-up better than anyone in the league while Jordan, Magic, and Bird were all playing. Donnie Nelson said he was a more athletic Bill Walton with a better shot. George Karl said he was the best guy in the world outside the NBA and the guy any NBA team needed to chase if they wanted to win a title. P.J. Carlesimo said there was no limit to how good he could have been. Bob Whitsitt is the one who scouted and recruited him, and he said he could have had a Jordan-like impact on the game. And Bill Walton himself?



This video is misleading because he was actually injured for a lot of the games they show here (he played the entire 1988 Olympics injured), but watch an injured Sabonis giving that work to David Robinson. Sabonis is basically the reason the Dream Team had to be created.




Even old, hobbled Sabonis could give the Bulls that work:



Those Nike calls MJ was getting at 3:10 and 5:32 though.



All sorts of guys big-upping Sabonis:





Adding Sabonis to those 1990s Blazers teams would have been almost on the level of a Durant to the Warriors level impact. The Blazers were already 60+ game winners and a contender with a terrible center, now they'd be wiping the floor with one of the best centers in the league. Look at how awful the teams were that were built around Hakeem and Robinson at the time, then imagine Drexler, Porter, Kersey, Buck, Cliff Robinson, Danny Ainge, and Drazen Petrovic with Sabonis in the middle.

Sabonis was that dude..... damn son, i never knew

That narrative was bs.

Blazers were killing the Bulls in Game 6 until Pippen and 4 bench-warmers mounted a huge comeback. They were down 17 in the fourth when Jordan went to the pine for five minutes, what if Portland had gone on a run and been up 25 when Jordan came back in? That game would have been over and it would have been on to Game 7.





Same in 1993 - if Paxson doesn't hit that game-winner in Game 6, that series goes to 7 as well.

Same in 1996 - Jordan was 5-19 with 5 turnovers in Game 6, if the refs hadn't been letting the Bulls get away with murder on defense all game, if Kemp isn't fouling out on the other end, if the Sonics aren't 5-24 from three, if Scottie, Harper, and Kukoc weren't nailing threes, that series goes to 7 as well.

Same in 1997 - Jordan had an open bunny from 8 feet and passed out to Kerr for a 15-footer to win the game instead. Otherwise that series might have gone to 7 too.

Even the Game 7 against the Pacers that year, did Jordan even hit a single shot in the 4th quarter? He might have had one early, maybe. It was Kukoc that single-handedly kept them in the game in the 3rd, and then Pippen and Kerr who hit the big shots down the stretch in the 4th. I just remember Jordan getting stripped clean and then totally bailed out by the refs with a "jump ball" call.

Of the 5-6 biggest games of Jordan's career, he had to be bailed out by his teammates in the biggest moment in all but one of them. Saying that Jordan was winning with willpower alone is a total Nike myth.

I think we all understand that it was a group effort, but mj set a lot of the tone, and was the reason we were in those chips to begin with

 

[Remote]

Same in 1996 - Jordan was 5-19 with 5 turnovers in Game 6, if the refs hadn't been letting the Bulls get away with murder on defense all game, if Kemp isn't fouling out on the other end, if the Sonics aren't 5-24 from three, if Scottie, Harper, and Kukoc weren't nailing threes, that series goes to 7 as well.

Karl didn’t put Glove on Jordan until Game 3, I believe.

The difference was quite apparent. I posted the stats in another thread but I’m too lazy to dig them up now.

 

[dem bath salts]

Jordan is still Jordan.

 

[Kinguno]

One of the biggest what ifs of late 80's basketball

Thing is for teams to win a single championship everyone has to come together in a way where everyone shines in their own way with role players hitting shots, star players diving on the floor, and everybody giving a little bit more plus luck

To win multiple it's like that but crazier because to keep it going you have to add new players while getting rid of players the Celtics at that time were in a stacked east we will never know how Len would have been treated in white Boston seen as a second until Bird retired I see that team being flabby and sick quicker

The Pistons only had enough to win two in a row after everything else they went through including IT ankle don't forget they had to get rid of Dantley to win it

Plus Sabo

We will never know

 

[Remote]

I really wonder what Sam Bowie could have been if he never got hurt in college.

 

[Wavy Hair Chipped Teeth]

That narrative was bs.

Blazers were killing the Bulls in Game 6 until Pippen and 4 bench-warmers mounted a huge comeback. They were down 17 in the fourth when Jordan went to the pine for five minutes, what if Portland had gone on a run and been up 25 when Jordan came back in? That game would have been over and it would have been on to Game 7.





Same in 1993 - if Paxson doesn't hit that game-winner in Game 6, that series goes to 7 as well.

Same in 1996 - Jordan was 5-19 with 5 turnovers in Game 6, if the refs hadn't been letting the Bulls get away with murder on defense all game, if Kemp isn't fouling out on the other end, if the Sonics aren't 5-24 from three, if Scottie, Harper, and Kukoc weren't nailing threes, that series goes to 7 as well.

Same in 1997 - Jordan had an open bunny from 8 feet and passed out to Kerr for a 15-footer to win the game instead. Otherwise that series might have gone to 7 too.

Even the Game 7 against the Pacers that year, did Jordan even hit a single shot in the 4th quarter? He might have had one early, maybe. It was Kukoc that single-handedly kept them in the game in the 3rd, and then Pippen and Kerr who hit the big shots down the stretch in the 4th. I just remember Jordan getting stripped clean and then totally bailed out by the refs with a "jump ball" call.

Of the 5-6 biggest games of Jordan's career, he had to be bailed out by his teammates in the biggest moment in all but one of them. Saying that Jordan was winning with willpower alone is a total Nike myth.

@ "had to be bailed out"
Kudos to teammates for stepping up once in a while. Props to Kerr hitting an open shot that MJ created for him.... It's great that Paxson was able to hit that wide open shot off a MJ pressure in the backcourt...especially since MJ had scored all the Bulls points the whole 4th quarter until that point