What's Jordan's legacy had Len Bias never pass away

[Sunalmighty]

He never played ONE game in the pros smh

 

[Remote]

I didn't say that Jordan played bad in every deciding game. What I said was that in nearly every deciding game, he needed his teammates to make the plays they did or he would have lost. So it was not Jordan's will singlehandly powering them to victory, they very much could have lost despite Jordan's play.

Thanks for this common sense posting and clarity.
This isn’t a dig at Michael. Merely a realistic accounting of what happened in those 90s series.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

You're all over the place. I'm flabbergasted at how your point of reference for all this Sabonis fellatio is a game against a college David Robinson. In fact, Robinson went for 19 and 12 to Sabonis 13 and 13. Using old ass quotes from the likes of Donnie Nelson talking about how he was a 7'3" Dirk.....well we saw what Dirk was able to do.....be an all timer with one ring. But hey, the guy that got outplayed by a 23 year old college senior would've been the foil to MJ's dominance.

The games against Robinson aren't my only point of reference. NBA players like Detlef Schrempf and Vlade Divac played against him in Europe and said he was the best big man in the world. Guys like Bobby Knight, Bill Walton, Mike Dunleavy, P.J. Carlisimo, and Bob Whitsitt went over to Europe to scout him and said that he was as good as anyone in the NBA. The coaches who knew him best compared him to the best in the world. How are you gonna say that all of their opinions mean nothing?

And why are you saying a "college David Robinson" like that's a rip when Sabonis and Robinson are the exact same age?

Robinson entered the NBA the next year and averaged 24 and 12 with 2 assists, 2 steals, and 4 blocks a game his very first year, so I think being able to go mano-a-mano with a college David Robinson proves that you're pretty damn good.


And yes, in 1988 a healthy 23yo Robinson went for 19 and 12 to an injured 23yo Sabonis getting 13 and 13 (and the win). The previous time they met, 21yo Robinson went for 18 and 7 with 3 blocks while 21yo Sabonis went for 16 and 13 with 4 blocks (USA won 87-85). And you can see the power with which Sabonis was dunking on Robinson, blocking him, etc. He was every bit as good as Robinson back then, and a lot of people in basketball thought his ceiling was higher because his skill level (shooting, passing) and basketball IQ was so high.


If nothing else, just look at what he did when he finally entered the NBA. In 1998 as a 33yo, even though his injury history had killed his athleticism and mobility and he had no lift whatsoever (which doesn't just hurt you on defense and rebounding but also affects your shot), he still averaged 16 and 10 on 50% shooting and over a block a game, and was still the best passing big man in the game. And that's without the chance to develop his game in the NBA. In his very first playoff series he averaged 24 and 10 against Utah with a crap Portland roster. In 2000 as a 35yo, he was still the starting center on a Blazer team without any all-stars that could easily have won the title if not for a lot of bullshyt from the refs.

If mid-30s, injured and immobile Sabonis was good enough to be an above-average starting center in the NBA, good enough to put up 20-20 games against the Bulls in 1998, then how can you say that prime, healthy Sabonis wouldn't have made a difference for the Blazers in 1992? At the least, how can you say that he wouldn't have been a HUGE upgrade over a washed Duckworth?

Always thought how good Sabonis supposedly was, was hyperbole. That 1988 footage doesn’t really look all that impressive to me. He doesn’t look anywhere near as good as a modern big like Anthony Davis or a Hakeem Olajuwon back then.

Was he really that good? Who is he comparable to? What they are describing sounds like a mash up of Kristaps Porzingis and Nikola Jokic.

How much early Olajuwon footage have you watched? Hakeem wasn't the "Hakeem" you know until years into his career. When he came into the NBA he was a raw athletic talent with incredible athleticism but few offensive moves. That offensive repertoire slowly developed over the course of his career - his four best scoring seasons didn't come until he was in his 30s. And both AD and Olajuwon are a good 4-5 inches shorter than Sabonis, so comparing them is a bit off.

Sabonis isn't a modern big like AD or Porzingis, but no one was back then. At the time, the best comparison was that he was like a bigger, more athletic Bill Walton with a better shot. Remember, Bill Walton was MVP and Finals MVP in 1978 and even after the injuries good enough to get 6th Man of the Year in the course of helping the Celtics get a title in 1985.

If you want to compare him to anyone now, I think he looked a lot like Embiid but with deeper bball IQ. Their shooting is similar (Sabonis was better but Embiid has nicer form), their offensive repertoire at the same age is similar, their defensive awareness is similar. Embiid is somewhat more agile but Sabonis is both taller and stronger. Embiid isn't nearly the passer Sabonis was, but that will keep coming with time.

As far as Shaq he put up 24-13-4 in 95 and 27-11-4 in 96. He was the same. Penny's numbers were better in 96 as well.

The bulls stopped their 3pt shooting as anderson shot 3/15 and scott was 3/19 in the series.

Of course Shaq and Penny were just as good in 1996, it was all their teammates that got hurt: Also, adding Rodman was a huge pickup for the Bulls - he took care of their rebounding problems, improved their defense and even spent some serious time guarding Shaq.

the only question was whether the Magic would be eliminated before all the members of Shaq and Penny's supporting cast were wearing supporting casts. Power forward Horace Grant had one on his left arm, thanks to a hyper-extended elbow suffered in Game 1 that sidelined him for the rest of the series, and guard Nick Anderson left the O-rena after Game 3 with one on his right wrist, badly sprained in a fourth quarter fall.

Jon Koncak, who took Grant's place in the starting lineup, played in Game 3 after a cortisone shot helped dull the pain in his left knee--if only temporarily. Guard Brian Shaw was scratched from Game 3 after he woke up with neck spasms. "When things like that happen," Hardaway said, you can't help thinking it wasn't meant to be."

It got so bad for the Magic that even Chicago couldn't help but feel a touch of sympathy. "When I shook hands with Brian Hill before the game I asked what next could go wrong for his basketball team," Bulls coach Phil Jackson said after Game 3. "I guess he found out today."

Gored by the Bulls

Why is Arvydas not someone who could've changed the outcome of at least the '92 Finals? Even with what we have seen of him in the NBA, as a hobbled as fukk 30+ year old 30 lbs heavier than his prime weight, he was still a high impact player for the Blazers. Think it's safe to say he would've been All-NBA caliber had he been able to come over in his early twenties and get the rehab he needed on his achilles and whatever else.

I'm glad this thread turned into a "School youngins on Arvydas". People here really are too young to comprehend how powerful that man was on the court

Yes a prime Arvydas would've made that portland team a dynasty

i'm just glad that he came late in his career for the sake of my Bulls team

 

[Remote]

Sabonis basically single handedly responsible for the Dream Team in 1992



@The Dankster

 

[O.iatlhawksfan]

There's no telling how good Len was goin to be. We have an idea of how good he was destin to be but there's a lot of those players that didn't turn out how we thought

 

[O.iatlhawksfan]

Out of all the players in NBA history who would have changed Jordan’s legacy, these nikkas in here said Aryvdas Sabonis

I don't think you understand how good he was

 

[Gothboi J]

some of y'all are legit retarded u don't think switching out Duckworth old ass for sabonis wouldn't had made any difference u don't understand basketball. That's why gsw lost in 7 with bum ass Harrison Barnes but with kd they damn near swept the Cavs. Exchanging a nikka that sucks for an all nba talent makes a huge difference. Not to say mj wouldn't have 6 rings but the blazer and bulls would have been a dope was rivalry

 

[LezJepzin]

If anyone lost it was gonna be the Pistons, not the Bulls. Bird wasn't gonna be out there taking rings in the 1990s.

The big "what if" is what if the USSR had released Sabonis to the Blazers before they destroyed his knees. THAT is a player who could have single-handedly wrecked some of Jordan's title hopes.

Blazers went to 6 with the Bulls in 1992 with a worthless Kevin Duckworth at the 5. How many titles would they have won from 1990-1996 with a prime Sabonis in that spot instead?

Detlef Schrempf said repeatedly that if Sabonis had been allowed in the league, he would be the best player in the NBA. He was seeing him play in person in Europe and calling him straight-up better than anyone in the league while Jordan, Magic, and Bird were all playing. Donnie Nelson said he was a more athletic Bill Walton with a better shot. George Karl said he was the best guy in the world outside the NBA and the guy any NBA team needed to chase if they wanted to win a title. P.J. Carlesimo said there was no limit to how good he could have been. Bob Whitsitt is the one who scouted and recruited him, and he said he could have had a Jordan-like impact on the game. And Bill Walton himself?



This video is misleading because he was actually injured for a lot of the games they show here (he played the entire 1988 Olympics injured), but watch an injured Sabonis giving that work to David Robinson. Sabonis is basically the reason the Dream Team had to be created.




Even old, hobbled Sabonis could give the Bulls that work:



Those Nike calls MJ was getting at 3:10 and 5:32 though.



All sorts of guys big-upping Sabonis:





Adding Sabonis to those 1990s Blazers teams would have been almost on the level of a Durant to the Warriors level impact. The Blazers were already 60+ game winners and a contender with a terrible center, now they'd be wiping the floor with one of the best centers in the league. Look at how awful the teams were that were built around Hakeem and Robinson at the time, then imagine Drexler, Porter, Kersey, Buck, Cliff Robinson, Danny Ainge, and Drazen Petrovic with Sabonis in the middle.

Portland has the most "what if?s" than any team in NBA History. From their 1978 team , which was on record pace before Walton got hurt

To Sabonis entering the league late , instead of after the 1988 Olympics.

to the trio of Roy, Aldridge and Oden never working out

Those late 80s, early 90s teams had everything BUT a prime center. Duckworth was ok at best , but Sabonis replacing him at the 5 would've made Portland unstoppable. No one couldn't fukk with them. Not the Pistons, Lakers or the Bulls. Their only weakness would've been staying healthy for there were no egos on those teams either.

One of the biggest what ifs of late 80's basketball

Thing is for teams to win a single championship everyone has to come together in a way where everyone shines in their own way with role players hitting shots, star players diving on the floor, and everybody giving a little bit more plus luck

To win multiple it's like that but crazier because to keep it going you have to add new players while getting rid of players the Celtics at that time were in a stacked east we will never know how Len would have been treated in white Boston seen as a second until Bird retired I see that team being flabby and sick quicker

The Pistons only had enough to win two in a row after everything else they went through including IT ankle don't forget they had to get rid of Dantley to win it

Plus Sabo

We will never know

I think the Celtics wouldve still broken down but not as fast if they had Bias. They played till June nearly every year in the 80s like the Lakers except they were older. Len Bias was a more athletic version of James Worthy but less of a jumpshot. They would have to end up trying to play like the Pistons having another post player but the weight would've been put on Bias to carry the team because he was the younger one A.K.A. the one who could still take the pounding of playing till late May/June the best.


Detroit would've been the same for their physical style of play still had the same shelf life.

Dallas in 1988 should've been like Houston in 1986 in their spoiler attempt against the Lakers but the league wasn't trying to have another ratings letdown . They wanted to give L.A. that back to back championship , something the league didn't see happen in two decades. The Mavs got hosed in game 7 as well as the Pistons in the Finals. What if Kareem didn't get special treatment that postseason but that's another story.

 

[Heavy_Handz]

Goddamn , Sabonis was like a fukking 7’3 Larry Bird with way more athleticism & defensive ability I could imagine that dude dominating in the mid-late 80’s because he was far from soft. He would bully cats in the lane

 

[krazykid18]

The nikka died from doing pure uncut cocaine correct he didn't die in an accident or from some health condition or career cut short from some injury...homie died from a drug overdose and that's before he was even in the league ..the most realistic possibility is he would have been washed up like most in that draft class he would have to be legendary just to be as good as doc and dwight with the drug use

 

[GiantGonzalez]

Hold up Sabonis was drafted in 86 but his debut was in 95

 

[RubioTheCruel]

Hold up Sabonis was drafted in 86 but his debut was in 95

USSR didn't want to let him go

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Hold up Sabonis was drafted in 86 but his debut was in 95

And people saying that Sabonis coming to the USA in his draft year isn't a huge "what if."

Portland has the most "what if?s" than any team in NBA History. From their 1978 team , which was on record pace before Walton got hurt

To Sabonis entering the league late , instead of after the 1988 Olympics.

to the trio of Roy, Aldridge and Oden never working out

And you didn't even include, "What if they had drafted Jordan at #2 instead of Sam Bowie?"

Or "What if Sam Bowie had never gotten injured?"

Or "What if the refs hadn't fixed Game 7 of the 2000 WCF because they were tired of LA falling short of the Finals?"



Someday someone also has to tell me how the Blazers were stupid enough to let go of Danny Ainge and Drazen Petrovic in back-to-back years. First we don't give Petrovic any minutes at all, trade him away for absolutely nothing (we waived the guy we traded him for six months later), and he immediately becomes a straight star for the Nets. Then the next year we let Ainge walk for nothing and he goes to Phoenix and is their #4 guy in their Finals run.

Maybe if we had had Sabonis on the team he would have helped them know that Drazen was a damn star. 22ppg on 52/45/87 shooting splits, those were Reggie numbers. If he had stayed on the Blazers he probably doesn't die in that accident either.

Those late 80s, early 90s teams had everything BUT a prime center. Duckworth was ok at best , but Sabonis replacing him at the 5 would've made Portland unstoppable. No one couldn't fukk with them. Not the Pistons, Lakers or the Bulls. Their only weakness would've been staying healthy for there were no egos on those teams either.

What you say about no egos was legit. That starting lineup stayed together from 1987 to 1993 and never once did you hear the slightest hint of any problems between them. They shared the rock, shared the limelight, played fantastic together. The only weakness was Kevin Duckworth at the 5.

And Duckworth was only "okay at best" in the regular season at his prime (which was over by 1992). In the playoffs he was always a 12 and 6 guy who shot in the low 40s, couldn't score inside and couldn't play defense. All he could do was float up these soft little midrange jumpers at an okay clip, which isn't what you need a center for. By the 1991 WCF and 1992 Finals he was a major liability on both ends.

Sabonis >>>>>> Duckworth on man defense
Sabonis >>>>>> Duckworth on help defense
Sabonis >>>>>> Duckworth on finishing inside
Sabonis >>>>>> Duckworth on post moves
Sabonis >>>>>> Duckworth on shooting range
Sabonis >>>>>> Duckworth on passing
Sabonis >>>>>> Duckworth on basketball IQ

Duckworth did literally nothing better than Sabonis. But switching from a roly-poly guy scoring 10ppg on 40% shooting to a All-NBA level talent wouldn't have done anything for a 60+ win team that was 5 quarters away from the title, right?

 

[C-Styles]

and to those that negged me, choke on an aids d*ck! Can't have a simple scenario of what ifs without them getting in they feelings! And this is coming from one of the biggest bulls fans who SAW JORDAN PLAY IN PERSON!

 

[Remote]

Goddamn , Sabonis was like a fukking 7’3 Larry Bird with way more athleticism & defensive ability I could imagine that dude dominating in the mid-late 80’s because he was far from soft. He would bully cats in the lane

Part of what makes people discount Sabonis is that he’s white. And candidly, his play probably wasn’t the prettiest.

You watch his highlights (whatever exists of his youth, anyway) and you see a good jumper and good hook shot, and a guy who could run the floor. But you don’t see the thunderous Vince Carter dunks. Or the Dream Shake to the fadeaway.

But as Dankster said, there are far too many coaches and experts who scouted him who said he was an amazing player.

It’s absolutely fair to question whether Sabonis would have been KAJ level in the NBA. You just can’t know that. But at the very least, given what he DID accomplish and showed us in his mid-30s, he was almost definitely a top 5 level Center had he been in the league in his prime. A guy who drops 20 and 10 on prime Shaq at 33 years old or whatever is a goddamn super upgrade over Kevin Duckworth.