What's Jordan's legacy had Len Bias never pass away

THE MACHINE

night owl
Joined
May 27, 2012
Messages
26,877
Reputation
6,520
Daps
104,355
Reppin
P.G. County
He still goes down as the GOAT. He might not have left in '93 fearing he might be turning the league over to Len. I imagine him playing through until 98 and retiring. He probably wouldnt have come back to Washington.

Zeke and the Bad Boy Pistons though :mjcry:
 

Remote

Veteran
Supporter
Joined
Aug 29, 2013
Messages
82,009
Reputation
25,254
Daps
370,093
Just looked it up.

1st three games of the finals the Bulls scored 107, 92 and 108 points.

In the next three games of the finals the Bulls scored 86, 78 and 87 points.

Game 4: Jordan had 23 pts on 6 of 19 shooting
Game 5: Jordan had 26 pts on 11 of 22 shooting
Game 6: Jordan had 22 pts on 5 of 19 shooting

Above is the original post I was referencing below.

:hubie:
Karl didn’t put Glove on Jordan until Game 3, I believe.

The difference was quite apparent. I posted the stats in another thread but I’m too lazy to dig them up now.
 

Jplaya2023

Veteran
Supporter
Joined
May 1, 2012
Messages
43,290
Reputation
-207
Daps
89,982
It would've only changed titles in the 80s because bird would've retired after the 88 season (he personally said this) and parish and mchale were getting old. Had lewis not died as well then it would've made the 90s a lot more interesting as well.

Had Len bias not died
Boston wins in 86 (like they did)
Boston wins in 87 (The celtics were injured heading into the finals (mchale broken foot, bird various injuries, dennis johnson injured) it took a magic hook shot for the series not to be 2-2 with game 5 being in boston. I think with bias, mchale is able to actually rest his broken foot in the season and it heals come playoff time and guys aren't playing 40 minutes a night throughout the playoffs
Boston wins in 88 (Bird retires and it offiically becomes bias team)
pistons still win in 89 and 90 with boston being better but losing in the second round to either the bulls or pistons
 

HookersandIceCream

#TeamOrange
Joined
May 1, 2012
Messages
19,566
Reputation
966
Daps
39,847
Reppin
Wherever whores go.....
:mjlol: @ "had to be bailed out"
Kudos to teammates for stepping up once in a while. Props to Kerr hitting an open shot that MJ created for him.... It's great that Paxson was able to hit that wide open shot off a MJ pressure in the backcourt...especially since MJ had scored all the Bulls points the whole 4th quarter until that point:mjgrin:


I’m sitting there wondering the same thing. Like do these muthafukkas not expect a shooter to hit a open shot? Like do they expect Kukoc to not dunk the ball when Jordan passes to him? Do they not expect Pippen one of the all time greats to not play defense and score 20+
 

Professor Emeritus

Veteran
Poster of the Year
Supporter
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
51,330
Reputation
19,851
Daps
204,029
Reppin
the ether
:mjlol: @ "had to be bailed out"
Kudos to teammates for stepping up once in a while. Props to Kerr hitting an open shot that MJ created for him.... It's great that Paxson was able to hit that wide open shot off a MJ pressure in the backcourt...especially since MJ had scored all the Bulls points the whole 4th quarter until that point:mjgrin:

Seems like you didn't understand the point in the slightest. :aicmon:

The claim I was responding to was that Jordan could will his way to victory no matter what the odds. The point I was making was no, there were plenty of situations where his teammates had to do something, and if they had not done it, the Bulls would have lost. So victory was not 100% in Jordan's hands, it's never 100% in any one player's hands. That's a myth that Nike and some fortuitous circumstances created around him.

I didn't say that Jordan played bad in every deciding game. What I said was that in nearly every deciding game, he needed his teammates to make the plays they did or he would have lost. So it was not Jordan's will singlehandly powering them to victory, they very much could have lost despite Jordan's play.

Which, FWIW, is true for pretty much any superstar.
 

C-Styles

Superstar
Joined
Jun 18, 2012
Messages
6,112
Reputation
-157
Daps
13,732
Reppin
The Windy City
Now lets put a little positivity in this for Jordan's sake. Lets say his father is never killed while Bias living and Sabonis coming in the league early. Jordan does not retire but is it a possibility that he loses the 92 finals but wins in 91, 93, 94, 95 ?? Does he make less finals? 8 straight ?
 

Rekkapryde

GT, LWO, 49ERS, BRAVES, HAWKS, N4O...yeah UMAD!
Supporter
Joined
May 1, 2012
Messages
154,466
Reputation
29,566
Daps
522,081
Reppin
TYRONE GA!
That narrative was bs.

Blazers were killing the Bulls in Game 6 until Pippen and 4 bench-warmers mounted a huge comeback. They were down 17 in the fourth when Jordan went to the pine for five minutes, what if Portland had gone on a run and been up 25 when Jordan came back in? That game would have been over and it would have been on to Game 7.





Same in 1993 - if Paxson doesn't hit that game-winner in Game 6, that series goes to 7 as well.

Same in 1996 - Jordan was 5-19 with 5 turnovers in Game 6, if the refs hadn't been letting the Bulls get away with murder on defense all game, if Kemp isn't fouling out on the other end, if the Sonics aren't 5-24 from three, if Scottie, Harper, and Kukoc weren't nailing threes, that series goes to 7 as well.

Same in 1997 - Jordan had an open bunny from 8 feet and passed out to Kerr for a 15-footer to win the game instead. Otherwise that series might have gone to 7 too.

Even the Game 7 against the Pacers that year, did Jordan even hit a single shot in the 4th quarter? He might have had one early, maybe. It was Kukoc that single-handedly kept them in the game in the 3rd, and then Pippen and Kerr who hit the big shots down the stretch in the 4th. I just remember Jordan getting stripped clean and then totally bailed out by the refs with a "jump ball" call.

Of the 5-6 biggest games of Jordan's career, he had to be bailed out by his teammates in the biggest moment in all but one of them. Saying that Jordan was winning with willpower alone is a total Nike myth.


Jordan never faced a championship team in the Finals unless you include a :flabbynsick: Lakers team in 91 (that should not have even been there). But being 6-0 in Finals is a great accomplishment.
 

Champ_KW

Superstar
Joined
May 12, 2012
Messages
6,516
Reputation
1,060
Daps
19,430
Reppin
NULL
That narrative was bs.

Blazers were killing the Bulls in Game 6 until Pippen and 4 bench-warmers mounted a huge comeback. They were down 17 in the fourth when Jordan went to the pine for five minutes, what if Portland had gone on a run and been up 25 when Jordan came back in? That game would have been over and it would have been on to Game 7.





Same in 1993 - if Paxson doesn't hit that game-winner in Game 6, that series goes to 7 as well.

Same in 1996 - Jordan was 5-19 with 5 turnovers in Game 6, if the refs hadn't been letting the Bulls get away with murder on defense all game, if Kemp isn't fouling out on the other end, if the Sonics aren't 5-24 from three, if Scottie, Harper, and Kukoc weren't nailing threes, that series goes to 7 as well.

Same in 1997 - Jordan had an open bunny from 8 feet and passed out to Kerr for a 15-footer to win the game instead. Otherwise that series might have gone to 7 too.

Even the Game 7 against the Pacers that year, did Jordan even hit a single shot in the 4th quarter? He might have had one early, maybe. It was Kukoc that single-handedly kept them in the game in the 3rd, and then Pippen and Kerr who hit the big shots down the stretch in the 4th. I just remember Jordan getting stripped clean and then totally bailed out by the refs with a "jump ball" call.

Of the 5-6 biggest games of Jordan's career, he had to be bailed out by his teammates in the biggest moment in all but one of them. Saying that Jordan was winning with willpower alone is a total Nike myth.


A lot of woulda coulda shoulda's in this post. Fact remains, Jordan got rings in an era bookended by Kareem and Shaq, and all the great bigs in between. You're in here talking about "what if Kerr doesn't hit a shot" or "what if MJ sat out 3 more mins in foul trouble" type shyt as if these other greats didn't have YEARS to take him out. Stop trying to reduce his dominance down to a few freak chance moments in time. Sabonis is nice, but he doesn't upset the apple cart like you think he would.
 

Professor Emeritus

Veteran
Poster of the Year
Supporter
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
51,330
Reputation
19,851
Daps
204,029
Reppin
the ether
Out of all the players in NBA history who would have changed Jordan’s legacy, these nikkas in here said Aryvdas Sabonis :laff:
You can be ignorant if you want, but why put yourself out there like that? :heh:

Was there a better player than Sabonis who could matched primes with Jordan, but didn't?

Was there a better team than Portland who could have beat the Bulls with just one more piece?

If you didn't know that Sabonis was widely regarded as one of the top players in the world, if you didn't know that he looked every bit as good as the Admiral when they went head-to-head in 1988 even though he was playing injured, if you didn't know that multiple NBA players, coaches, and GMs called him one of the greatest in the world, then I can understand. But why admit it?

In 1992 Kevin Duckworth was :flabbynsick: . As the starting center he averaged 10 and 6 on 46% shooting and couldn't play defense for shyt (wasn't even top-5 on the team in blocks).

In 1998 when Sabonis was 33 years old and couldn't bend his knees or jump any more from all the injuries, he still averaged 16 and 10 on 50% shooting with 3 assists and over a block a game and was one of the better one-on-one defensive centers in the league.

Even an old, washed Sabonis was still >>>>> than Duckworth. And you don't think a prime, injury-free Sabonis could have made the difference in 1992 when the Blazers were up 15 in the 4th in Game 6?




Now lets put a little positivity in this for Jordan's sake. Lets say his father is never killed while Bias living and Sabonis coming in the league early. Jordan does not retire but is it a possibility that he loses the 92 finals but wins in 91, 93, 94, 95 ?? Does he make less finals? 8 straight ?

Why would the Bulls win in 1995? That was a much lesser version than the 1993 or 1996 teams, they just weren't good enough that year. Jordan had a dominant playoff run and they still lost, if he hadn't left then he would have been more worn down at that point.

But I think they would have broken down long before that. Even as it was, they had a crazy streak of luck where their top-8 all staying healthy for all six Finals runs, with the two-year gap in the middle. If they had kept playing 100+ games every year without that break they would have had a breakdown in their key players before then.


And why would the Blazers only make the 1992 Finals with a healthy Sabonis in his prime?

In 1991, even with bum Duckworth starting at the 5, Blazers were a 63-19 team that took the Lakers to 6 in the WCF. Kevin Duckworth averaged 10 and 6 on 37% shooting in the series and only blocked one shot in 6 games while a rookie Divac buried him, averaging 13ppg on 62% shooting.

Vlade himself said straight up that prime Sabonis was better than prime Admiral. You don't think that Sabonis is >>>>>>>> than Duckworth and the Blazers aren't the best team in the NBA in 1991 if they have him?

In 1993, Portland still won 51 games even though Duckworth was now useless and Drexler missed half the season hurt. Otherwise they still had their same guys, Porter was 29, Drexler and Kersey were 30, Buck was 32, Cliff was 26. Sabonis would have been 28 when the season started. By the time the playoffs came around, Duckworth had declined so much the Blazers had to start Mark Bryant at center, and The Admiral beat them up inside. If Sabonis had been carrying the team by that point, the wear on Drexler and everyone else would have been less. Drexler proved that in 1995 he was still good enough to be a strong #2 to a dominant #1, I think that from 1993-1995 the Blazers would have been real contenders still with prime Sabonis leading the way and Drexler/Porter/Kersey/Buck/Cliff as a solid core behind him.

Not to mention 1990, of course.

I think if Sabonis enters the NBA healthy in 1986 and stayed healthy, Blazers probably win 2 at least with a chance at several more.
 

Professor Emeritus

Veteran
Poster of the Year
Supporter
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
51,330
Reputation
19,851
Daps
204,029
Reppin
the ether
A lot of woulda coulda shoulda's in this post. Fact remains, Jordan got rings in an era bookended by Kareem and Shaq, and all the great bigs in between. You're in here talking about "what if Kerr doesn't hit a shot" or "what if MJ sat out 3 more mins in foul trouble" type shyt as if these other greats didn't have YEARS to take him out. Stop trying to reduce his dominance down to a few freak chance moments in time. Sabonis is nice, but he doesn't upset the apple cart like you think he would.

Jordan didn't get any rings in Kareem's era. :dahell:

Who was the best center he even faced in the finals? Rookie Vlade Divac? :heh:

Actually, rookie Vlade Divac is the best center the Bulls ever faced in the Finals and it isn't even close. :dead:

He never faced Hakeem or The Admiral in the playoffs. The first time he faced Shaq he got washed, the 2nd time the Magic lost 4 of their top 6 to injury and were hurting so bad Phil Jackson had to go up and say he was sorry about what was happening by Game 3. Not a single one of the great bigs of Jordan's era had the team they needed around them except in 1994-1995.

Jordan is my #1 all-time. He deserves it. But the idea that he was undefeatable is dumb fan-boy stuff. Like every other great in history, he had to catch a lot of breaks, and he caught more than most. It wouldn't have taken all that to push the needle to a loss in some of those years. That doesn't mean he's not the greatest, it just means that you start sounding like an SNL skit.

Bob: Which brings us to our very special guest, you know him as the Airman.

Together: Da AirMan

Bob: Here he is Michael Jordan. (Michael Enters). Alright, Michael I do know the boys have a lot of questions, so uh let's get started. Gentleman.

Carl: Yeah well Michael uh, what about the Olympics. You're representing our country. Isn't there a concern that these games are a little lop sided?

Bob: Yeah, why don't you just play these countries by yourself?

Todd: Yeah that's a good idea.

Michael: I don't think they would let me do that, guys.

Carl: What if you could have two players? Say you, and a certain coach Ditka.

Pat: That's already unfair again.

Todd: Yeah that's no contest.

Bob: If I may shift gears for a moment gentleman, coach Ditka vs. a hurricane, who would win?

Todd, Pat, Carl: Ditka, Ditka!!

Bob: Hold on, Hold on, Hold on. The name of the Hurricane is Hurricane Ditka.
 

Urethra Franklin

caught a virus from Churches Chicken
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Messages
965
Reputation
-4,178
Daps
3,024
Out of all the players in NBA history who would have changed Jordan’s legacy, these nikkas in here said Aryvdas Sabonis :laff:
The ultimate "I know something you don't know" posting. Cats dig up some obscure footage and think they Phil Jackson and Red Aurbauch
Who cares what ya'll think "could have happened?" It didn't, so that's just as good as it couldn't
 
Top