"When God was dead for 3 days and 3 nights who was controlling the Universe?" - Ahmed Deedat

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

Lol Christians believe in Mariolatry and other Christians even accuse each other of believing it. There's no disputing mariolatry exists within Christianity, and the Quran never says Mary was a part of the Trinity

The argument is not whether or not some Christians worshipped Mary. Some did as a historical fact. The problem is the Quran never directly addresses actual Trinitarian Doctrine as taught in the NT and the sole example of it even attempting to engage with it puts Mary beside Jesus and Allah. This despite the historically attested fact that the Doctrine goes back to the 1st Century in writings from the Ante-Nicene Fathers which preceded the writing of the Quran by 500 years......

​

Receive our counsel, and ye shall have no occasion of regret. For as God liveth, and the Lord Jesus Christ liveth, and the Holy Spirit, who are the faith and the hope of the elect, so surely shall he, who with lowliness of mind and instant in gentleness hath without regretfulness performed the ordinances and commandments that are given by God, be enrolled and have a name among the number of them that are saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is the glory unto Him for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Clement 58:2, approx. 90 CE.​

Study, therefore, to be established in the doctrines of the Lord and the apostles, that so all things, whatsoever ye do, may prosper both in the flesh and spirit; in faith and love; in the Son, and in the Father, and in the Spirit; in the beginning and in the end; with your most admirable bishop, and the well-compacted spiritual crown of your presbytery, and the deacons who are according to God. Be ye subject to the bishop, and to one another, as Jesus Christ to the Father, according to the flesh, and the apostles to Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit; that so there may be a union beth fleshly and spiritual.

St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Magnesians, XIII, approx. 110 CE.

And they got it from here....​

​

Ephesians 4:4-6 (KJV)​

​

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

So, basically, what you're saying is the the Quran's argument is against heretical Christians who did/do NOT follow the NT, and not against mainstream Christians who did/do.​

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

most biblical historians state that mary was just 15 when she so called had jesus.... so God got a 15 year old pregnant?
and is kept quiet and swept under the rug?

Nothing wrong with that at all. Most girls at that time period were married as soon as possible. Most often right after reaching puberty and menstruation.

15 was actually OLD in-comparison to the greater populace.

Hell, in MY state right now the age of consent is 16, so your 'outrage' is misplaced.​

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

I don't think you understand how the brain works.

You believe the Earth is flat.

You can't talk about how ANYTHING works unless someone on Youtube makes a video about it.

​

 

[HarlemHottie]

Why are they weirdos?

Cuz if they Jews for Jesus, shouldn't they be talking to other Jews?

 

[Koichos]

So can you explain those 'Jews for Jesus' weirdos?

Messianic 'Judaism' is nothing more than a movement of Christian missionaries with Jews at the helm to lend credence. Regrettably, though not surprisingly, the most successful Christian missionaries in the world today are actually Jewish. This is the (sometimes unfortunate) power of the Jewish soul; it is uncontainable and utterly unmatched in its ability to influence. Any cause or movement it attaches itself to, good or bad, it inevitably leads. Without Torah (and in this case, strictly Torah), the latter, the bad, is often the result.

Cuz if they Jews for Jesus, shouldn't they be talking to other Jews?

They do. Jews are their main target. These Jewish Christian missionaries, with the financial assistance of gentile Christians (the main contributors), spend more than a quarter billion dollars in Israel annually in attempts to proselytize Jews. And they're quite successful, considering the fact that many Israeli Jews are secular (or, at the very least, not frum) and don't know anything from their lives. Missionaries therefore prey upon these particular areas donning Jewish religious dress like tzitziyos, talleisim, and yarmulkes...with a New Testament in hand, preaching the word of the wicked. This is how the lost are lured. (Certainly, they know where to go and who to go after, as this could never be accomplished in a place like Bnei Brak, the most religious city in the world, with 99% of its Jews shomrei shabbes and the majority of the men involved in full-time Torah study.) These Jewish missionaries fall under the category of machti'im es ha'rabim, those who lead others to sin. This starts with putting a safek, or doubt, in the minds of fellow Jews, which is a sin in and of itself. (Jesus himself would use this tactic.) To make matters worse, not only are they causing Jews to sin, but they are doing so by converting their ideology to accept a heretical ovdei avodah zorah who taught hatred for Torah observant Jews ("you are of your father the Devil") and the Rabbis ("pit of vipers", "whitewashed tombs"); the same akum heretic who was ultimately put to death for sorcery; a tzaddik turned rasha. There is nothing kosher about his students believing he is Moshiach or following anything else that man taught.

Whoever honors the Torah, is himself honored by the people; whoever degrades the Torah, is himself degraded by the people." (Mishnah Avos 4:6)​

This is the beginning and the end of Jesus.

 

[HarlemHottie]

This starts with putting a safek, or doubt, in the minds of fellow Jews, which is a sin in and of itself. (Jesus himself would use this tactic.) To make matters worse, not only are they causing Jews to sin, but they are doing so by converting their ideology to accept a heretical ovdei avodah zorah who taught hatred for Torah observant Jews ("you are of your father the Devil") and the Rabbis ("pit of vipers", "whitewashed tombs"); the same akum heretic who was ultimately put to death for sorcery; a tzaddik turned rasha. There is nothing kosher about his students believing he is Moshiach or following anything else that man taught.

Whoever honors the Torah, is himself honored by the people; whoever degrades the Torah, is himself degraded by the people." (Mishnah Avos 4:6)​

This is the beginning and the end of Jesus.

Super deep. Rep.

Would it be wrong for me, a non Jew, to study the Talmud? I mean, would it cause offense?

 

[NkrumahWasRight Is Wrong]

Super deep. Rep.

Would it be wrong for me, a non Jew, to study the Talmud? I mean, would it cause offense?

Nah go ahead

 

[HarlemHottie]

Nah go ahead

Are you a Jew?

 

[NkrumahWasRight Is Wrong]

Are you a Jew?

Bar mitzvah"d but not really actively practicing

Im italian and cant lay off the prosciutto

 

[Koichos]

Nah go ahead

Gentiles are forbidden from studying the written Torah, let alone the Talmud. A gentile who studies Torah is chayiv misa. So too, one who attempts in observing those mitzvos that were set aside for the Jewish nation, like Shabbes or tefillin; he is chayiv misa. Even Jewish women themselves are not to study the Talmud (namely the Gemara; there exists some leniencies for Mishnayos like Pirkei Avos), and in fact are exempt from the study of Torah. Why do you think in the morning during Birchas Hashachar we make the bracha of "sheloi osani ishah"? We thank Hashem for "not having created us as women" because women are obligated in less mitzvos. Jewish women are exempt from around 30 or so in all, including the study of Torah, though they certainly can engage if they so choose (my wife and I often learn Torah together, and she's adamant that I have some "Divrei Torah" to say for Shabbes; my home chavrusa). They must of course learn the laws regarding kashrut, niddah, shabbes, mikveh, tznius, etc.; but unlike a Jewish man, a Jewish woman does not study Torah to its full extent.

Regarding gentiles, only a B'nei Noach, that is, a righteous Noahide, a gentile who follows Sheva Mitzvos B'nei Noach, the Seven Laws of Noah, are permitted and indeed encouraged to learn those laws which are applicable to them (the 7 laws themselves, and other mitzvos like tzedakah (charity) and kibud av v'em (honoring one’s parents)). In other words, there are parts of the Torah that are relevant to gentiles, yes, but they cannot 'study Torah' (nor Talmud), as in, to immerse themselves in all its learning like that of a Jew, for whom the ENTIRE Torah was given. On the other hand, it doesn't apply to someone learning because he's interested in conversion; or more appropriately, already in the process. For instance, gentiles may not attend Pesach, nor learn its laws, but if he or she is in the process of conversion, then it is permitted. Or Shabbes, where one who is in the process of conversion should indeed learn the laws, but until their conversion is complete, he or she must perform at least one forbidden act on Shabbes to desecrate it.

Bar mitzvah"d but not really actively practicing

Im italian and cant lay off the prosciutto

Is your mother Jewish? If not, ignore all the below.

If so (I'm going to assume so), you should resume practice, one mitzvah at a time. When's the last time you put on tefillin, or said the shma? Don't answer, just think about it. Remember, you are a Jew because of your soul, not because of your genetics. And that soul comes from your mother. There is no such thing as 'half Jew' as you cannot be half a soul. 'Half Jew' is a secular term. We are not of the goyishe world of confusion; in Judaism you are either 100% Jew or 100% Gentile, period. There is no in between. If you have kids with a shikse your children are 100% gentile and thus have zero halachic connection to you. You do not even fulfill the first mitzvah of Pru U'Rvu (be fruitful and multiply) no matter how many children you have, as this obligation can only be fulfilled should you procreate with a Jewish woman. In one generation you can wipe yourself out and destroy 3,300 years of cohesion (regardless if your mother was a born Jew or convert; the soul a convert receives in mikveh goes back to Har Sinai). Out of 8 billion people Hashem decided to make you a Jew. Why? Because you made a deal with Him 3,300 years ago at Har Sinai..


You were given a golden ticket at birth. Don't let it go to waste. It can only be redeemed after 120 if you uphold your side of the deal, i.e., the mitzvos. You needn't worry about Hashem's, for He doesn't change His mind.

"Know, therefore, that only Hashem your G-d is G-d, the steadfast G-d who keeps His covenant faithfully to the thousandth generation of those who love Him and keep His commandments." (Deut. 7:9)

"Moreover, the Glory of Israel does not deceive or change His mind, for He is not human that He should change His mind." (1 Sam. 15:29)​

If you take all the pleasure of all the people of all the generations combined, it will not be equal to one hour of the reward of a righteous Jew in the afterlife.

"Yafeh sha'ah achas shel koras ruach b'oilam ha'ba mi'kol chayei oilam ha'zeh—One hour of spiritual pleasure in the World-to-Come is more pleasurable than all the life in this world." (Mishnah Avos 4:17)​

 

[Koichos]

This requires a thorough reply, which I started to type before Shabbes, but my laptop died while going into hibernation for Shabbes, so I'll try this again.

Super deep. Rep.

Would it be wrong for me, a non Jew, to study the Talmud?

Traditionally, it is prohibited even for a Jewish woman to study the Talmud; to the extent of even opening a Gemara. Needless to say, as a gentile, and a female one at that, you are absolutely forbidden by Jewish law to engage in such learning. Nevertheless, the days of being constrained to handwritten scrolls of the Talmud are long gone; meaning, whether we like it or not, everyone has the ability to gain at least some type of access in today's technological age, even if it be superficial, through translations. Halachically, though, the prohibitions still stand, and no Rabbi, or even lay Jew in their right mind, is going to teach a gentile Talmud let alone count one as a chavrusa, a study partner (the method in which we learn). However, if you still choose to do so, no one can stop you, but you're going to have to go it alone and the text will certainly not make very much sense, if any at all. The Talmud explains HOW to do what Torah instructs us to do. The Torah gives us rules, the Talmud tells us the parameters. The basic blueprint is the Torah (Written), and the details are the Talmud (Oral). If you lack a basic understanding of the Torah – and needless to say, the Tenach, the entire Jewish Bible (Torah is the first five books) – you will not even begin to grasp the hairsplitting Socratic dialogue of the Talmud and would thus be attempting to walk, or better yet, run, before you can crawl. It would be like wanting to learn Kabbalah, the secrets of Judaism, the study of the hidden part of the Torah that weaves everything together, when you've never studied Torah; and if you've never studied Torah then certainly you've never studied Talmud; and if you've never studied Talmud there is nothing to talk about concerning Kabbalah.

The Talmud is to be studied for Halachic purposes. Without the Oral Laws that are delivered and preserved in the Talmud, not one commandment in the written Torah makes sense. These laws compose the greater part of the Torah that was transmitted orally from Rabbi to student from the time of Har Sinai. Only after the turmoil caused by the destruction of the Second Temple and the subsequent final exile of the Jews was it compiled into textual form. Basically, the Talmud consists of 63 masechtos, or tractates, which translates to 2,700 pages plus. Even if you wanted to learn ONE page very very quick by someone teaching you – and this is, of course, assuming you know alef bet with at least a basic understanding of Hebrew/Aramaic – it would take you about an hour. And that's a very, very brief overview. Forget about actually going in depth; forget about learning it yourself; and forget about actually understanding it. To give a better perspective: Completing the entire shas with even the most perfunctory examination of all the halachos would take the average yeshiva bochur roughly seven years (one page a day); and these kids are literal machines who learned the entire written Torah by heart by the age of 10. Thus, in order to even attempt to obtain an adequate understanding of the Talmud you would have to first be familiar with the Torah in its original Hebrew text. And if you wanted to actually learn Torah, there is no way to learn it by yourself. You have to have a connection with a Rabbi, who should also have a Rabbi. If your Rabbi doesn't have a Rabbi, that's not good news. Everybody has to have a Rabbi. The only way for you to grow in Judaism is to have a personal relationship.

Spoiler

Here's a little secret; something that's known to all bochrei yeshiva, that it says in the Gemara among other places: "Ein Mukdam u'M'uchar ba'Torah—There's no chronological order in the Torah". The Torah is not in absolute chronological order. Some events occur earlier that are really later, and some events later that are really earlier. There are a lot of really good examples, but I'll give just two.


"Va'Y'daber...b'Echad la'Chodesh ha'Sheni—And Hashem spoke...on the first day of the second month." (Num. 1:1)
"Va'Y'daber...ba'Chodesh ha'Rishon—And Hashem spoke...in the first month." (Num. 9:1)


Let's look at Exodus 24. Moses goes up to Hashem, then back to the people to relay the ordinances and words of G-d. They reply "All the words that the Hashem has spoken, we will do."

"So Moses came and told the people all the words of Hashem and all the ordinances, and all the people answered in unison and said, `All the words that Hashem has spoken we will do.'" (Ex. 24:3)​

But if you go back to Exodus 19, you will see that this actually occurred, chronologically, even before the Torah was given in Chapter 20.

"And all the people replied in unison and said, `All that Hashem has spoken we shall do!' and Moses took the words of the people back to the Lord." (Ex. 19:8)​

So actually the events of Chapter 24, really go back to Chapter 19, and occur before Chapter 20. The point of the matter is: if you don’t learn the Tenach as a real book (i.e., as a Jew), you would never know this. You wouldn’t know it wasn’t in chronological unless you were learning it the way Jewish people do. Gentiles' whole way of looking at Tenach is totally different than ours. The view that we have of Tenach is much different than that of Christians', for instance. The Tenach to us is nonfiction, it's a true thing; it's about my family (Paternally, I'm from shevet Levi of the Kohein branch, descended from Aaron the brother of Moses; thus, when I think of Moses, I think of my uncle). They don't look at the Tenach as a book of history, but rather as a book of literature. When I hear Christians talking about the Tenach, it seems to me that they think its George Orwell's Animal Farm; an allegory, something that's not real.

I mean, would it cause offense?

Perhaps. Still, any version you find online will have been heavily censored, even the Hebrew itself (much of the Talmud has been censored since the Middle Ages due to Jewish persecution by the Christians). For instance, in the Talmud the standard term for a gentile which is גוי (goy) has been censored usually with עובד כוכבים (oved kochavim; 'worshiper of stars', i.e., an idolater). And the English translation usually doesn't even use 'gentile' but 'non-Jew', depending on the translator.

There are plenty more examples but they start to get into the territory of Halacha, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[HarlemHottie]

@Koios, That was thorough. Thanks for taking the time. I was trained as a classical Greek historian and am proficient in more than one ancient language. I've recently become interested in fleshing out my understanding of ancient Jews, to more fully understand the period. Just off the strength of my knowledge of ancient Mesopotamia, I've schooled a few Jews on their history. I'm also not a Christian, but I own the Anchor Bible series and regularly get into friendly debates with pastors or clarify the context of early christianity to believers.

I'm not sure if I'll follow the prohibitions regarding the text. I mean, my people were prohibited from reading at all so when I'm told that I can't read a thing... I feel some kinda way. But out of respect for my Aunt Joanie, a black jew whose father was a rabbi, kept kosher, and hosted Sammie Davis Jr in her home, I may consider it. I asked bc, when it comes to the details, I'm often not sure which laws the people still keep. Y'all got all kinda reform Jews and stuff nowadays, lol.


I'm gonna re-read your post when I have a minute and get to googling. Watch your alerts bc I may have a question. Thanks again, I'd rep again if they let me.

 

[Koichos]

I didn't receive an alert for some reason.

my Aunt Joanie, a black jew whose father was a rabbi, kept kosher

Is she your aunt from your maternal side or your paternal side?

I asked bc, when it comes to the details, I'm often not sure which laws the people still keep. Y'all got all kinda reform Jews and stuff nowadays, lol.

The Reform went off the derech some two centuries ago following the Haskalah (Jewish Enlightenment). Many of them have been intermarrying for so many generations that, at this point, they would require a giyur mi'safek (lit. "conversion out of doubt"). The only reason the term 'Orthodox' came about was to differentiate Torah true Jews (Orthodox) from Jews who wanted to pick and choose which laws to push aside and which laws they thought would mesh well with secular society (Reform, hence 'Reform', to change; even the Conservative today do not keep all the laws). The ultra-Orthodox are the only contemporary Jewish population who have kept the Torah and all its laws, ergo the oft-repeated 'insular' label. Among the ultra-Orthodox the Chassidim are by far the most stringent who go above and beyond just the minimal command. For instance, there is a Halacha that forbids a Jew from consuming (non-mevushal) wine that was touched, shaken, or poured by a gentile. Chassidim, however, refrain from consuming the wine should a gentile even look at it. Likewise, if it was touched, shaken, or poured by a mechalel shabbes (a Jew who 'desecrates the Shabbes', meaning, he doesn't keep it), Chassidim will not consume the wine. This is because a Jew who doesn't keep the Shabbes is considered by Halacha as one who abandons Judaism for another religion, i.e., an idolater. However, he is still Jewish, as a Jew remains such regardless of sins committed. A Jew who, let's say, 'converts'; he is considered a Jew in rebellion, but a Jew nonetheless.

As I type this it is motzei Shabbes going into Tisha b'Av. Tisha b'Av is one of the four major fast-days that the Jewish People meticulously keep (17 of Tamuz, 9 of Av, fast of Gedalia, 10 of Teves). Tisha b'Av, or 9 of Av, is a day of fasting and mourning in which observant Jews follow in order to commemorate the destruction of the Holy Temple (both the First and Second Temple were destroyed on Tisha b'Av). The only people who not only fast today but refrain from the numerous other restrictions, are observant Jews, and neither the Reform nor the Conservative fall into that category. The Reform today may be the majority because of how 'inclusive' and 'accepting' they are (they perform bris' on gentile babies, bar mitzvahs to gentiles, bar(k) mitzvahs to dogs (...no, really), marry Jew and gentile under the chupah with a ketubah, allow gay female Rabbis (double no), have mixed male/female seating in shul, do not enforce the laws of niddah let alone mikveh (which means husband and wife cannot be intimate. Every second is an aveirah from the Torah like eating swine), etc.), but as you can see, they certainly don't represent Judaism. The righteous remnant the Tenach frequently mentions can only refer to the Torah true Jews who abide by Torah Judaism; the ultra-Orthodox who never left the faith of their ancestors, those whose lives are devoted to keeping the Torah and all its laws. As my Rebbi once put it: Traditional Orthodoxy today is like the Pharisees when. The Judaism of Philo is like Modern Orthodoxy. The Essenes are like the Chassidim of today.


Something interesting to note: These four major fast-days that the Jewish People meticulously keep (17 of Tamuz, 9 of Av, fast of Gedalia, 10 of Teves) are actually part of the Oral Tradition of the Jewish People. In other words, there is no mention of these fasts in the Written Torah. Why then does the holy prophet Zechariah, in the name of G-d, discuss these four major fast-days (and tell us that in the messianic age they will become joyous holidays) if they are nowhere commanded to be kept in the Scriptures?

"So said Hashem of Hosts: The fast of the fourth month [17 of Tamuz], the fast of the fifth month [9 of Av], the fast of the seventh month [fast of Gedaliah], and the fast of the tenth month [10 of Teves] shall be for the house of Judah for joy and happiness and for happy holidays, and cheerful seasons (Zech. 8:19)."​

Nowhere in the Written Torah (first five books) is there a mention of these fasts. It turns out that they were decrees of the prophets because of the destruction of the First Temple.

 

[Take It In Blood]

bumping to stir up Christian/islam beef like a true heathen

 

[BaileyPark31]

I'm agnostic and I can figure out the holy trinity.

Smh