Who ranks higher , Timmy or Kobe ?

[Greenhornet]

This is just nonsense. How old were you in Duncan's prime? Duncan finished 1st or 2nd in MVP voting for 4 straight years from 2001 to 2004 because HE was the problem. In 2003 he took one of the weakest supporting casts in recent history to a title.

2003, Duncan averaged 25-15-5 and 3 blocks a game on 51% shooting in the postseason. Led the Spurs in all 5 categories by a wide margin AND was by far their best defender.

His #2 was a 20yo TP who averaged 14-3-3 on 40% shooting with no defense. Stephen Jackson averaged 13-4-3 on 41% shooting. No won else scored double-digits, no one else shot even 50%, no one else averaged even 7rpg or 3apg. The problem was NOT the team. The problem was Duncan.


Duncan-Robinson were a decent duo in '98 and '99 but Duncan was still clearly the team's dominant player. Duncan-TP-Manu were a good trio from '05 to '08 but Duncan was clearly the best player on the team that time. And from '00 to '04 there was no doubt at all that it was Duncan and a bunch of inferior role players.






This just isn't true at all. In '00 the Lakers won a title even though Kobe was terrible in the Finals and pretty mediocre in the WCSF and WCF. In '01 the Lakers won the title despite Kobe having a terrible Finals against the only difficult team they played that postseason. In '02 the Lakers got past the Kings despite Kobe shooting just 41.9% for the series.

So in all three of their title runs, Kobe was slowed/limited against their most difficult opponents and the Lakers advanced anyway.


Heck, even in their second run. In the '09 WCSF when it came down to Game 7, Kobe scored just 14 points on 4-12 shooting and the Lakers still won by double-digits. In the '10 Finals when it came down to Game 7, Kobe shot just 6-24 and was just 40% for the Finals. So teams slowed Kobe and his teammates still did enough to beat them. Kobe shot like shyt in the two biggest games of those runs and still won.






TP and Ginobli didn't even join the team until '02 and '03 and neither was playing anywhere near an all-star level until '05 and '06. Kawhi didn't join until '12 and was still a role player until '16. The Spurs were an awful 3pt shooting team when they won the '99 title (24th in the league in made threes, 19th in %). In fact, the Spurs never once finished top-10 in threes until 2006 (10th) and didn't make top-5 in threes until 2011.

You seem to just want to ignore almost the entire period from 1997 to 2005 when Duncan was clearly in his prime and won most of his titles, and grade him just on how he was in the twilight years.






This was not remotely true during the period of his career from 1996-2002 when he won most of his titles.

Sure it's true if you want to talk about 2005-2016.....but in those 12 seasons the Lakers only got past the 1st round five times and only got past the WCSF three times.






I feel like I've run into someone from a different part of the multiverse and we're just talking about two different realities.

I'm saying I do agree with you and this is a great post with breakdowns and numbers. Its perfect honestly... I'm not saying Duncan isnt one of the best ever... I said that in the last post. I was here since 91-92... I saw all of this and the title he won with Drob. I saw his consistency and I remember the commercials and shyt. Like I said, I agree with you ... we just dont agree on the pick

I gotta add some bullshyt since I was a Suns fan... if we are gonna talk about carrying teams...MVPs and coaching... systems and who carried Kobe or what not to debate Duncan VS Kobe. Then how come we rank Nash as trash? when he didnt have amazing coaches... he was the system and he won MVPs as well. Thats what I was saying in my last post with how circumstantial shyt can be. The same barometer we use to differentiate Kobe and Duncan ... we can apply to other players... but when it comes to those players. We say they are trash.

Outside of that ring... we can say Nash had the 50 win season streaks... we can say he carried... etc

My feeling with Duncan VS Kobe... and its just my opinion... is that when we played each team. The world would say "We are playing the Spurs tonight" or "We are playing Kobe tonight" there's a big difference to me in what I actually cared about worrying about. I never said "oh fukk we have to play Duncan tonight" it was always Spurs. If we played Lakers and Kobe was magically out... it would be a wrap for the most part. I was only worried if the game was close because I knew Kobe was going to end shyt.

a few people said it too, its close and they are both great so it really doesnt matter who you pick
I'm more afraid of Kobe though, I dont care about what seasons you pick or any of that shyt.
People use the Shaq and Kobe shyt to teeter totter back and forth... when the reality was at the time
those nikkas on the same team ruined the league and it was completely unfair... it was a shock that Detroit beat them and hilarious
when you get into elite company like the Lebrons, Duncans, Shaq's, Kobe's ... it doesnt matter who does more because you know they are gonna be in the zone anyways. Fighting over who scores more just ruins the team more than it already did. All of them could go off for 40 on any given night easily. I wouldnt expect Shaq to not put up 30 or for Kobe to not gun, knowing he has limited possessions and Shaq to get boards.

whats clutch about the spurs and teams like warriors is... they dont force the issue... they play into the system and when a shot arrives... they are trained to be ready. Where Kobe, Jordan, Shaq and them are forcing it and scoring off iso over and over. Thats another thing that actually makes Duncan super impressive... his poise to be ready under any circumstance. Its just two different sides of basketball. One person leads and waits to deliver... the other guy makes delivery and charges in head first. Its a win win really. I'm just saying as a SUNS fan... we figured out Spurs system and could stop them as a team... with Kobe.... we lost alot just based off his skill alone. He had Bynum and Pau to outsize us. But we only really won games when Lakers had an off night really. Lakers and Spurs owe us like a ring a piece Churro eating, European, Yellow and Gold wearing, lowriding, nose breaking, hip checking, dungeons and dragons playing pieces of shyt

 

[Professor Emeritus]

trash defenders Bruce Bowen and Ginobli are trash perimeter defenders

This is how I know you're either ignorant or purposely being deceptive.

Bruce Bowen was 37yo and retired the next year. You think a 37yo man who was playing college ball in the 1980s is a great defender for prime Kobe in 2008?

And Ginobli tore a ligament in his ankle in the 1st round and in his words it was "the size of a grapefruit" He had to get surgery in the offseason to repair it. Also had an injured groin and an injured calf, he could barely move on defense and looked terrible on offense. His teammates were telling him to just sit.

Are Injuries to Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker a Blessing in Disguise for Spurs?​

It's Game One of the first round, against the Phoenix Suns. Manu Ginobili jams his left ankle. Prior to this game, he was playing with a long list of injuries—an injured groin (end of the regular season) and an injured calf (earlier in the game).

Then, in the playoff series against Los Angeles, he re-injures his bum ankle. He continued to play, despite advice from teammates and coach Gregg Popovich. Yet if the Spurs don't have Ginobili, they don't have good chances of winning. The Spurs ended up losing the series in a tragic five-game effort.

Spurs' Ginobili says injured ankle requires surgery

San Antonio Spurs guard Manu Ginobili says he needs arthroscopic surgery to repair a ligament injury in his left heel.

www.espn.com

The injury hobbled Ginobili during the NBA playoffs, particularly during the Western Conference finals against the Los Angeles Lakers, when his signature explosiveness was visibly absent. Ginobili led the Spurs in scoring last season and won the league's sixth man award.

At the end of the season in late May, Ginobili had an injection in the ankle and said he expected it to improve quickly. Ginobili wore a walking boot for several weeks starting in June after an MRI exam showed a ligament to be five times the size of the one in his other foot.



So he had an injured groin, an injured calf, a badly injured ankle, his explosiveness was "visibly absent", he had to wear a walking boot for weeks after the season was over, and you want to claim he was playing great defense on Kobe?



This is why I know y'all go on names and narratives and have no clue what was happening in the games. You think a 37yo corpse and a guy who needed a walking boot were excellent options to defend prime Kobe Bryant in the WCF.

 

[gho3st]

This is how I know you're either ignorant or purposely being deceptive.

Bruce Bowen was 37yo and retired the next year. You think a 37yo man who was playing college ball in the 1980s is a great defender for prime Kobe in 2008?

And Ginobli tore a ligament in his ankle in the 1st round and in his words it was "the size of a grapefruit" He had to get surgery in the offseason to repair it. Also had an injured groin and an injured calf, he could barely move on defense and looked terrible on offense. His teammates were telling him to just sit.

Are Injuries to Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker a Blessing in Disguise for Spurs?​

It's Game One of the first round, against the Phoenix Suns. Manu Ginobili jams his left ankle. Prior to this game, he was playing with a long list of injuries—an injured groin (end of the regular season) and an injured calf (earlier in the game).

Then, in the playoff series against Los Angeles, he re-injures his bum ankle. He continued to play, despite advice from teammates and coach Gregg Popovich. Yet if the Spurs don't have Ginobili, they don't have good chances of winning. The Spurs ended up losing the series in a tragic five-game effort.

Spurs' Ginobili says injured ankle requires surgery

San Antonio Spurs guard Manu Ginobili says he needs arthroscopic surgery to repair a ligament injury in his left heel.

www.espn.com

The injury hobbled Ginobili during the NBA playoffs, particularly during the Western Conference finals against the Los Angeles Lakers, when his signature explosiveness was visibly absent. Ginobili led the Spurs in scoring last season and won the league's sixth man award.

At the end of the season in late May, Ginobili had an injection in the ankle and said he expected it to improve quickly. Ginobili wore a walking boot for several weeks starting in June after an MRI exam showed a ligament to be five times the size of the one in his other foot.



So he had an injured groin, an injured calf, a badly injured ankle, his explosiveness was "visibly absent", he had to wear a walking boot for weeks after the season was over, and you want to claim he was playing great defense on Kobe?



This is why I know y'all go on names and narratives and have no clue what was happening in the games. You think a 37yo corpse and a guy who needed a walking boot were excellent options to defend prime Kobe Bryant in the WCF.

Bruce Bowen was ALL NBA 1st team that year

 

[Bboystyle]

This thread went exactly how i expected it to

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Bruce Bowen was ALL NBA 1st team that year

All-Defensive teams were trash in the 2000s breh. They literally had to take it away from coaches in 2012 cause they were just kicking the picks down to their interns who were grabbing the same players off rep every year no matter how good they were. 37yo Bowen made the All-Defensive for the same reason 33yo Kobe made it, and the same reason they took the vote away - cause they were just picking the same players they had picked the year before.

This is Bruce Bowen defense and recovery in 2008.




Admit it, you just grabbed Ginobli and Bowen off of names without realizing that Manu could barely walk and Bowen was 37yo and dragging.

 

[murksiderock]

There was legitimately a span from 2005 to 2013 when Kobe went down that no one considered Tim better but Spurs stans and Kobr haters. Like that is literally half their careers and an entire period with no Shaq.

Interesting. So from the time Duncan entered The League in 1997, until 2005, what was the comparison then? That's an 8-year window, about 45% of their careers...

I think Kobe had a higher apex but I dont know if comparing them really makes sense as a centre and shooting guard are drastically different

See I think Duncan's 2000-2005 peak was higher than Kobe's 2005-2010 peak. Peak Duncan was the most dominant center besides Shaq since Hakeem, he was outstanding. I think Duncan suffers from the fact most heads were bored by his playstyle and his team's playstyle, so they missed on alot of his greatest hits...

 

[DrexlersFade]

This thread went exactly how i expected it to

"The Don"

 

[SymbolicOne09]

Kobe willed the usa to a gold medal vs spain.

Tim duncan loss to Argentina

 

[GreatestLaker]

Bruce Bowen was ALL NBA 1st team that year

That was off reputation. Neither Bowen or Manu were good defensively that playoffs. Listen Kobe was the best player in 2008 for me. But using head to head match ups to determine who was the better player is flawed. Different teammates, different opponents, different schemes etc. Nash has a better record vs Kobe. And you would have to be an utter idiot to say he was better.

 

[Amare's Right Hook]

 

[Sccit]

MORE PROOF THAT THE MAJORITY OF COLI IS LITERALLY RETARDED

 

[O.T.I.S.]

I appreciate Tim more now that he’s retired but

Who are Duncans Disciples?

 

[zayk35]

The one that kept sending the other one home in the playoffs

They sent each other home regularly

 

[Cladyclad]

I appreciate Tim more now that he’s retired but

Who are Duncans Disciples?

It’s more people hate Kobe

 

[get these nets]

I appreciate Tim more now that he’s retired but

Who are Duncans Disciples?

The rulebook and officiating were deliberately altered to favor perimeter play, and discourage post play. Happened during the tail end of his career, and he has spoken about it.

NBA big men would only be able to pattern certain parts of Tommy's game into their repetroire, not his bread and butter moves.