Why does Lebron refuse to go to a ball movement-heavy offense?
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ISO
Pass me the rock nikka
This is a retarded thread. LeBron is an elite off-ball player on cuts and catch-and-shoots.
How do you think the Cavaliers are hitting 25 threes in playoff games, he already plays in a heavy ball movement offense. The Cavaliers this season were a historic offense, the problem isn't offense it's their 22nd ranked league defense.
How do you think the Cavaliers are hitting 25 threes in playoff games, he already plays in a heavy ball movement offense. The Cavaliers this season were a historic offense, the problem isn't offense it's their 22nd ranked league defense.
Who stat pads?
malbaker86
Gators
So what's your point?He can't defend my nig Kawhi either
another dude spitting that real...
I hope this doesn't come across as Skip-like, but I noticed a sort of trend during this stretch of 7 straight finals appearances and his 3-4 overall record during that stretch (the 07 Cavs are irrelevant to this since they really were a one man show).
In 2011, LeBron's heat lost to the Cavs, in 2013, a missed shot away (and really just an pretty wild sequence away) from losing to the Spurs, and in 2014, a 4-1 gentleman's sweep to the Spurs. In 2015, the LeBron cavs lost to the warriors, and in 2016 were tied to the warriors until the final minute until winning the championship (and the warriors famously had an injury and a big suspension with DG). This year, they got thoroughly beat by the Warriors (4-1).
Now, LeBron is, in my mind, either equal or a hair behind Jordan. So this is not a "lol LeBron sucks" post. I am genuinely interested to see what people here have to say about this. But I've noticed that the teams LeBron has assembled and picked have consistently underperformed in those finals and there has been a consistent theme of "his other stars are underperforming and bench is not scoring" almost every of those 7 past finals.
This is completely true too, the stats don't lie. His benches have consistently underperformed and so has his supposed other big 3 stars. In 2015, he had to play as he did back in 2007. There is no denying LeBron has had to to put up insane stats and he has. Only player to average a triple double in the NBA finals. Insane scoring.
But would it be possible to theorize that maybe the team culture LeBron fosters is highly detrimental to team success in the finals?
LeBron's heat and cavs teams have had the same common theme: LeBron is THE alpha dog. He's the superstar, and the leader and face of the team. He's the decision maker (it's pretty clear that he was the reason for blatt's firing, and he is an almost acting GM on the teams he's on).
The teams he's been losing or very close to losing to have featured deep benches but also a very different culture IMO. Who's the alpha dog on the Spurs? Who's the alpha dog on the Warriors? Sure they have stars, but an alpha dog? No. Not in my opinion at least (differing views welcome!).
And so my point is, is that, could these two different cultures be a silent influencer in the teams around LeBron underperforming in the finals? No doubt LeBron fosters a very friendly team culture and the guys love him, but it seems to be like it's a lot more of a clique-ey alpha dog culture versus the warriors and spurs having had a culture of "no one here is THE guy", we're just doing this for the team. And so my theory is, could this severely hamper the development of young players and role players? Could it be possible that LeBron makes his players better on a play by play basis but not on an overall team basis?
Kevin Love was one of the best players in the league, and he has underperformed. That simply did not happen in Minneapolis. Wade and Bosh in 2014, regardless of wade being a little older, still did not make complete sense relative to how good they were supposed to be. Wade and Bosh after LeBron left were not exactly performing terribly. And then there's the fact that the bench play on LeBron teams has been abysmal. It's often said that LeBron makes other players around him better, and on a play by play basis, his BBIQ is so off the charts that he clearly does, but is there any chance that players are not being developed properly because his teams have been so focused on him, versus teams like the warriors and spurs who have deferred heavily to the coach? The mavs, spurs, and warriors all have a coach that is a very powerful and respected figure (albeit Kerr less so than the more established Carlisle and Pop), blatt and Lue, and spo even, although much better, has never reached that level of respect, I think.
And so, with the East is a weaker conference, I think that style of team building is sustainable. Let LeBron be the alpha, and just make players work around him. But once the finals arrive and his teams have to face a very team oriented opponent from a stronger conference, the bench and lack of development starts to show. Yes, GS added KD, but that was an issue before KD. Before the warriors.
It could absolutely be argued that even the Thunder pre-KD have had the same problem, with WB and KD with the alpha roles. Look at the Lakers in 2004 folding to the Pistons, who had that team oriented mentality with no clear alpha dog.
The issue is that LeBron is an amazing passer and team player, playmaker, etc. But on a deeper level the players he's passing and making plays with are underdeveloped, and are not built to depend on each other but rather depend on LeBron.
McCaw still getting a few buckets in the finals on GS as this undersized rookie to me was a sign of the difference in the development mentality of those two teams. Either way, this theme of supposedly good or solid players underperforming around LeBron and his opponents' benches stepping up is a theme that we have seen a lot of the past and will continue to see every single other finals appearances. Regardless of who they add, I'm almost convinced we are going to see this theme arise again. I think that on some level it's also comparable to Westbrook this year. Everything was so focused on him that although the team around him may have not been on KD's level, they never developed to play as a team but rather around Westbrook. The mentality just seems different, and I think that in some way, much like Kobe, much like other stars who have tried to chase this title of GOAT that Jordan has held comfortably until recently, as LeBron has crept up with his very solid argument, his need for legacy has affected the effort put on his teams' development and their role in the story of their titles.
Feel free to disagree or agree, and make your own points. I realize I'm not coming in with tons of data, just something that I truly believe to be a big weakness in the LeBron system, almost like a consequence of him being so head and shoulders better than everyone else.
Thoughts?
I hope this doesn't come across as Skip-like, but I noticed a sort of trend during this stretch of 7 straight finals appearances and his 3-4 overall record during that stretch (the 07 Cavs are irrelevant to this since they really were a one man show).
In 2011, LeBron's heat lost to the Cavs, in 2013, a missed shot away (and really just an pretty wild sequence away) from losing to the Spurs, and in 2014, a 4-1 gentleman's sweep to the Spurs. In 2015, the LeBron cavs lost to the warriors, and in 2016 were tied to the warriors until the final minute until winning the championship (and the warriors famously had an injury and a big suspension with DG). This year, they got thoroughly beat by the Warriors (4-1).
Now, LeBron is, in my mind, either equal or a hair behind Jordan. So this is not a "lol LeBron sucks" post. I am genuinely interested to see what people here have to say about this. But I've noticed that the teams LeBron has assembled and picked have consistently underperformed in those finals and there has been a consistent theme of "his other stars are underperforming and bench is not scoring" almost every of those 7 past finals.
This is completely true too, the stats don't lie. His benches have consistently underperformed and so has his supposed other big 3 stars. In 2015, he had to play as he did back in 2007. There is no denying LeBron has had to to put up insane stats and he has. Only player to average a triple double in the NBA finals. Insane scoring.
But would it be possible to theorize that maybe the team culture LeBron fosters is highly detrimental to team success in the finals?
LeBron's heat and cavs teams have had the same common theme: LeBron is THE alpha dog. He's the superstar, and the leader and face of the team. He's the decision maker (it's pretty clear that he was the reason for blatt's firing, and he is an almost acting GM on the teams he's on).
The teams he's been losing or very close to losing to have featured deep benches but also a very different culture IMO. Who's the alpha dog on the Spurs? Who's the alpha dog on the Warriors? Sure they have stars, but an alpha dog? No. Not in my opinion at least (differing views welcome!).
And so my point is, is that, could these two different cultures be a silent influencer in the teams around LeBron underperforming in the finals? No doubt LeBron fosters a very friendly team culture and the guys love him, but it seems to be like it's a lot more of a clique-ey alpha dog culture versus the warriors and spurs having had a culture of "no one here is THE guy", we're just doing this for the team. And so my theory is, could this severely hamper the development of young players and role players? Could it be possible that LeBron makes his players better on a play by play basis but not on an overall team basis?
Kevin Love was one of the best players in the league, and he has underperformed. That simply did not happen in Minneapolis. Wade and Bosh in 2014, regardless of wade being a little older, still did not make complete sense relative to how good they were supposed to be. Wade and Bosh after LeBron left were not exactly performing terribly. And then there's the fact that the bench play on LeBron teams has been abysmal. It's often said that LeBron makes other players around him better, and on a play by play basis, his BBIQ is so off the charts that he clearly does, but is there any chance that players are not being developed properly because his teams have been so focused on him, versus teams like the warriors and spurs who have deferred heavily to the coach? The mavs, spurs, and warriors all have a coach that is a very powerful and respected figure (albeit Kerr less so than the more established Carlisle and Pop), blatt and Lue, and spo even, although much better, has never reached that level of respect, I think.
And so, with the East is a weaker conference, I think that style of team building is sustainable. Let LeBron be the alpha, and just make players work around him. But once the finals arrive and his teams have to face a very team oriented opponent from a stronger conference, the bench and lack of development starts to show. Yes, GS added KD, but that was an issue before KD. Before the warriors.
It could absolutely be argued that even the Thunder pre-KD have had the same problem, with WB and KD with the alpha roles. Look at the Lakers in 2004 folding to the Pistons, who had that team oriented mentality with no clear alpha dog.
The issue is that LeBron is an amazing passer and team player, playmaker, etc. But on a deeper level the players he's passing and making plays with are underdeveloped, and are not built to depend on each other but rather depend on LeBron.
McCaw still getting a few buckets in the finals on GS as this undersized rookie to me was a sign of the difference in the development mentality of those two teams. Either way, this theme of supposedly good or solid players underperforming around LeBron and his opponents' benches stepping up is a theme that we have seen a lot of the past and will continue to see every single other finals appearances. Regardless of who they add, I'm almost convinced we are going to see this theme arise again. I think that on some level it's also comparable to Westbrook this year. Everything was so focused on him that although the team around him may have not been on KD's level, they never developed to play as a team but rather around Westbrook. The mentality just seems different, and I think that in some way, much like Kobe, much like other stars who have tried to chase this title of GOAT that Jordan has held comfortably until recently, as LeBron has crept up with his very solid argument, his need for legacy has affected the effort put on his teams' development and their role in the story of their titles.
Feel free to disagree or agree, and make your own points. I realize I'm not coming in with tons of data, just something that I truly believe to be a big weakness in the LeBron system, almost like a consequence of him being so head and shoulders better than everyone else.
Thoughts?
TheDarceKnight
Veteran
daps and rep
His teams inevitably become less than the sum of it's parts (guys like bosh and love end up with a fraction of their normal impact) but he's had stacked enough teams and individually great enough to where it ultimately doesn't matter sometimes ... To me it's only an issue when we start getting the "poor LeBron has to do everything...He needs more help" shyt pops up EVERY time he loses... Especially when he's damn near handpicked his revolving door of allstars and Bron ball shooters to play with for like the entirety of his prime and killed coaches that wanted to implement a more modern motion based offense to bring puppets in... It can't be both ways
fifth column
Superstar
the Cavs offense couldnt score a point in the last 3 minutes of Game 3, they let the Warriors go on a 8-0 run. their offense is definitely a problem vs the Warriors, not against the 28 other teams
as for defense, the only guys they can sign are 32 year olds like channig fyre and RJ. unless they get lucky drafting #30, #60, this is as good as it gets w/ kyrie and love defending pick and rolls...
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O.T.I.S.
Veteran
Keep playing dumb
He's definitely declined, but I'm not sure what quality defense you can expect from a wing player entering his 15th season who just passed Tim Duncan in playoff minutes.
O.T.I.S.
Veteran
Exactly...I don't know if he would actually give a shyt about his stats taking a hit...But that's not his game
Its amazing how Love/Bosh were big allstars until they went to play in Cleveland and their numbers went down, their respect went down, and then limited to being more of outside shooters instead of playing their natural game.
Wade/Kyrie personally lowered their game to defer but came up big in a lot of ways.
But still, whenever they lose it's everyone elses fault, he needs more help, Love/Bosh/Kyrie/Wade are trash, he needs more playmakers, he needs more shooters, etc...
And so the game being over and dude still trying to get his numbers so it looks like "well atleast we didn't get swept and it looks like I averaged a trible double"
ISO
Pass me the rock nikka
They had a 115 offensive rating against them that's ridiculous. Pointing out a spurt where they couldn't score is pointless.
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Don't need you toContinue being a witness breh