Why does Lebron refuse to go to a ball movement-heavy offense?

[Kaypain]

Games 1 and 2 were even more out of reach and you idiots were posting non stop about his lack of stat padding in those fourth quarters.

Hypocritical fukkers can't take these fools serious.

 

[Kaypain]

Lmao so are we only doing that for LeBron or every NBA player who has scored when the game is out of reach. Hell Golden State blew out everyone in the playoffs but I didn't hear any of this stat padding talk when they scored if the game was out of reach. I don't hear this talk when MJ or Kobe scored if the game was out of reach. This stat padding shyt is a new term applied to LeBron and pushed by Skip Bayless.

This is just one of MANY stigmas placed on Lebron, the most criticized player of all time.

This nikka can't even take a shyt without backlash.

 

[Kaypain]

another dude spitting that real...



I hope this doesn't come across as Skip-like, but I noticed a sort of trend during this stretch of 7 straight finals appearances and his 3-4 overall record during that stretch (the 07 Cavs are irrelevant to this since they really were a one man show).

In 2011, LeBron's heat lost to the Cavs, in 2013, a missed shot away (and really just an pretty wild sequence away) from losing to the Spurs, and in 2014, a 4-1 gentleman's sweep to the Spurs. In 2015, the LeBron cavs lost to the warriors, and in 2016 were tied to the warriors until the final minute until winning the championship (and the warriors famously had an injury and a big suspension with DG). This year, they got thoroughly beat by the Warriors (4-1).

Now, LeBron is, in my mind, either equal or a hair behind Jordan. So this is not a "lol LeBron sucks" post. I am genuinely interested to see what people here have to say about this. But I've noticed that the teams LeBron has assembled and picked have consistently underperformed in those finals and there has been a consistent theme of "his other stars are underperforming and bench is not scoring" almost every of those 7 past finals.

This is completely true too, the stats don't lie. His benches have consistently underperformed and so has his supposed other big 3 stars. In 2015, he had to play as he did back in 2007. There is no denying LeBron has had to to put up insane stats and he has. Only player to average a triple double in the NBA finals. Insane scoring.


But would it be possible to theorize that maybe the team culture LeBron fosters is highly detrimental to team success in the finals?

LeBron's heat and cavs teams have had the same common theme: LeBron is THE alpha dog. He's the superstar, and the leader and face of the team. He's the decision maker (it's pretty clear that he was the reason for blatt's firing, and he is an almost acting GM on the teams he's on).

The teams he's been losing or very close to losing to have featured deep benches but also a very different culture IMO. Who's the alpha dog on the Spurs? Who's the alpha dog on the Warriors? Sure they have stars, but an alpha dog? No. Not in my opinion at least (differing views welcome!).

And so my point is, is that, could these two different cultures be a silent influencer in the teams around LeBron underperforming in the finals? No doubt LeBron fosters a very friendly team culture and the guys love him, but it seems to be like it's a lot more of a clique-ey alpha dog culture versus the warriors and spurs having had a culture of "no one here is THE guy", we're just doing this for the team. And so my theory is, could this severely hamper the development of young players and role players? Could it be possible that LeBron makes his players better on a play by play basis but not on an overall team basis?

Kevin Love was one of the best players in the league, and he has underperformed. That simply did not happen in Minneapolis. Wade and Bosh in 2014, regardless of wade being a little older, still did not make complete sense relative to how good they were supposed to be. Wade and Bosh after LeBron left were not exactly performing terribly. And then there's the fact that the bench play on LeBron teams has been abysmal. It's often said that LeBron makes other players around him better, and on a play by play basis, his BBIQ is so off the charts that he clearly does, but is there any chance that players are not being developed properly because his teams have been so focused on him, versus teams like the warriors and spurs who have deferred heavily to the coach? The mavs, spurs, and warriors all have a coach that is a very powerful and respected figure (albeit Kerr less so than the more established Carlisle and Pop), blatt and Lue, and spo even, although much better, has never reached that level of respect, I think.

And so, with the East is a weaker conference, I think that style of team building is sustainable. Let LeBron be the alpha, and just make players work around him. But once the finals arrive and his teams have to face a very team oriented opponent from a stronger conference, the bench and lack of development starts to show. Yes, GS added KD, but that was an issue before KD. Before the warriors.

It could absolutely be argued that even the Thunder pre-KD have had the same problem, with WB and KD with the alpha roles. Look at the Lakers in 2004 folding to the Pistons, who had that team oriented mentality with no clear alpha dog.

The issue is that LeBron is an amazing passer and team player, playmaker, etc. But on a deeper level the players he's passing and making plays with are underdeveloped, and are not built to depend on each other but rather depend on LeBron.

McCaw still getting a few buckets in the finals on GS as this undersized rookie to me was a sign of the difference in the development mentality of those two teams. Either way, this theme of supposedly good or solid players underperforming around LeBron and his opponents' benches stepping up is a theme that we have seen a lot of the past and will continue to see every single other finals appearances. Regardless of who they add, I'm almost convinced we are going to see this theme arise again. I think that on some level it's also comparable to Westbrook this year. Everything was so focused on him that although the team around him may have not been on KD's level, they never developed to play as a team but rather around Westbrook. The mentality just seems different, and I think that in some way, much like Kobe, much like other stars who have tried to chase this title of GOAT that Jordan has held comfortably until recently, as LeBron has crept up with his very solid argument, his need for legacy has affected the effort put on his teams' development and their role in the story of their titles.

Feel free to disagree or agree, and make your own points. I realize I'm not coming in with tons of data, just something that I truly believe to be a big weakness in the LeBron system, almost like a consequence of him being so head and shoulders better than everyone else.

Thoughts?

We posting Reddit essays now

Yo I'm done y'all have a nice summer

 

[Mad Good Dro]

fukking casuals that don't understand that the cavs lost because of their defense, they had a 115 ortg vs the warriors, it didn't have shyt to do with their offense :Baldsmh1:

Cavs will just retool in the offseason and prob package trade love/shump/some asset for pg13

retool the bench with some vets that can defend like tony allen and get a backup point guard

 

[Marc Spector]

This is a retarded thread. LeBron is an elite off-ball player on cuts and catch-and-shoots.

How do you think the Cavaliers are hitting 25 threes in playoff games, he already plays in a heavy ball movement offense. The Cavaliers this season were a historic offense, the problem isn't offense it's their 22nd ranked league defense.

True. The past couple of years the Cavs have tried to introduce more motion into their offense. But they only flirt with it compared to other teams that have run it well (spurs, 2011 mavs, dubs,).

It also has to be said though though that these teams have/had facilitators that are high percentage perimeter shooters.

 

[Creflo ½ Dollar]

I think Lebron brings some of the stuff on his self like bringing up the fact that he average a triple double. Like what that posed to mean you down 0-2 To be honest, when primary ball handlers get triple doubles (curry, bron, harden,westbrook) the rebounding numbers are kind of inflated. Most of them rebounds are uncontested (even tho I'm sure brin has a higher contested rebound rate as them small guards but my point still stands). I've seen all them get triple doubles and never once thought like damn they beasting on the boards most of the time they just securing open rebounds while they big man box out. It's a strategy but we need to start looking at them stats how we look at the NFL inflated passing numbers.

I think he deserve criticism for putting down his teammates saying that they ain't good enough to win. All the while playing LeGM and signing and trading for people who didn't end up making a difference either. I'm just saying I believe Liggins would have been a decent contributor defensive wise his series but he got the boot.

 

[Creflo ½ Dollar]

fukking casuals that don't understand that the cavs lost because of their defense, they had a 115 ortg vs the warriors, it didn't have shyt to do with their offense :Baldsmh1:

Cavs will just retool in the offseason and prob package trade love/shump/some asset for pg13

retool the bench with some vets that can defend like tony allen and get a backup point guard

Like LeGM didn't have a hand in getting all them defensive inadequate players signed. How signing Deron Williams was going to help you beat the Warriors. He is not a good ISO player anymore so he isn't going to flourish in the cavs offense and he never really played defense. Turn Deron Williams into Norris Cole brehs. I'm not saying he would've been lighting up he scoreboard but playing for any other team with good offense he would've been waaay more effective.

 

[Cladyclad]

So basically if the Cavs need buckets you would suggest LeBron James play to his weakness (perimeter shooting) rather than his strength(driving to the rack)?

Not what I'm saying. Did u watch the last 2 minutes of the game 5? GS gave him 3 layups so he could have his 40

 

[Marc Spector]

fukking casuals that don't understand that the cavs lost because of their defense, they had a 115 ortg vs the warriors, it didn't have shyt to do with their offense :Baldsmh1:

Cavs will just retool in the offseason and prob package trade love/shump/some asset for pg13

retool the bench with some vets that can defend like tony allen and get a backup point guard

Yall keep saying this but its a recurring problem with Bron teams.

That offense only goes as far as it does because Lebron is that good.

But come Finals time when youre up against probably the best defense in the league, it looks really suspect that these high powered offenses completely disappear. Not even reduced, just fukking vanish.

THis year you can say it was the defense, especially on the defensive boards side early in the series.

BUt the offense still underachieved outside of one game. Its a recurring problem. Might not be the most relevant problem, but a glaring problem nonetheless.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

i thought after the Spurs series in 2014, he would team up w/ Blatt and make a better offense, but he didnt.

Yeah, because flat-earth Kyrie, Dion Waiters, and Tristan Thompson are the EXACT kind of high-IQ players you want handling the ball more and making snap decisions in a movement-heavy system.

So why did
Trade for and sign them, and place a puppet at head coach?

Kyrie, Waiters, and TT were already there when he got there. Who did you want him to sign who would have excelled in a motion-heavy offense? Who did you think was available?

 

[GoldenGlove]

This presumes how he would have developed

Even if he's not as far along as he currently is OFFENSIVELY... there's no doubt in my mind that he would be a valuable asset to have for the Cavs defense right now. Especially with who they have to beat for a title

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Not what I'm saying. Did u watch the last 2 minutes of the game 5? GS gave him 3 layups so he could have his 40

Every play in last two minutes of Game 5:

Lebron misses 14-foot jumper
Tristan misses layup
Curry misses three
Kyrie turns ball over
Durant is blocked by Lebron on three
Kyrie misses jumper
Curry makes three
Lebron makes layup
Curry misses three
JR makes three


Lebron had ONE layup in the last two minutes of Game 5. If anything, Curry was the one trying to stat-pad by launching a three only 14-15 seconds into the shot clock on every possession.

Ya'all so full of shyt.

 

[Mad Good Dro]

Yeah, because flat-earth Kyrie, Dion Waiters, and Tristan Thompson are the EXACT kind of high-IQ players you want handling the ball more and making snap decisions in a movement-heavy system.







Kyrie, Waiters, and TT were already there when he got there. Who did you want him to sign who would have excelled in a motion-heavy offense? Who did you think was available?

Its always casuals on here that don't know shyt about basketball trying to shyt on bron
nikkas really arguing about switching to a motion offense when they had a 115 ortg against the best defense in the league

Rely on iman shumpert and tristan thompson making quick decisions with the basketball in a motion offense brehs


Although if they somehow get pg13 they could then shift to more of a screen heavy motion offense since pg/kyrie/jr are great catch and shoot players off screens

pg/lebron pick and rolls get it done griff

 

[Mad Good Dro]

Even if he's not as far along as he currently is OFFENSIVELY... there's no doubt in my mind that he would be a valuable asset to have for the Cavs defense right now. Especially with who they have to beat for a title

To be fair nobody expected GSW to get that good that quick

Cavs are better built towards beating a team like the spurs

 

[delta]

We posting Reddit essays now

Yo I'm done y'all have a nice summer

so u cant say shyt in response.. nice.

dont quote me no more