Why is pop/catchy music frowned upon in hip-hop/R&B?

[IllmaticDelta]

Pop music is watered down.

Not necessarily. You can have crossover music w/o being watered down but watered down music made with the intentions to hit the masses is what I would call "poppy"

Part of going pop is transforming your sound so that the masses will like it. The idea is that you're only going to go so far as an artist of a particular genre.

see my above post

 

[mobbinfms]

No other producer, outside of K-Rob, Clue, and Rockwilder produced more than one song (not counting the bonus tracks) on Vol. 3. People give credit to Kanye for Blueprint all the time and he did the same amount of tracks as Just and Bink.

So two wrongs make a right? Kanye and Timb deserve credit for the work they did on those albums, doesn't mean they helmed the record.

lists the 25 most popular hip-hop/rap songs, calculated weekly by airplay on rhythmic and urban radio stations and sales in hip hop-focused or exclusive markets. Hot Rap Songs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I saw this when you posted it the first time. I want to know which radio stations they are talking about, who classifies a song as rap or hip hop, and what all the exclusive hip hop markets are. I don't expect you to have answers to these questions.

I'd also like in depth information on what they do for the R&B chart.

He was talking about Missy's songs were bigger with R&B crowds. It's something that he can't prove. It's a generalization based on his perception. Another could generalize that those records were bigger in rap. The reason I referred to the charts is because they differentiate between the two by gathering data from different markets.

We assume.

didn't have to be a club banger or feel good. It's still a crossover record. That record does have far more harmonizing than their other records especially when you compare that song to the first portion of the album.

I'll have to defer to @Wacky D on that. I'm no Bone fan.
I will say that nothing about that record felt pop to me.

No other producer, outside of K-Rob, Clue, and Rockwilder produced more than one song (not counting the bonus tracks) on Vol. 3. People give credit to Kanye for Blueprint all the time and he did the same amount of tracks as Just and Bink.

lists the 25 most popular hip-hop/rap songs, calculated weekly by airplay on rhythmic and urban radio stations and sales in hip hop-focused or exclusive markets. Hot Rap Songs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

was talking about Missy's songs were bigger with R&B crowds. It's something that he can't prove. It's a generalization based on his perception. Another could generalize that those records were bigger in rap. The reason I referred to the charts is because they differentiate between the two by gathering data from different markets.

It didn't have to be a club banger or feel good. It's still a crossover record. That record does have far more harmonizing than their other records especially when you compare that song to the first portion of the album.

They did in fact sample the chorus part of the song for "Street Dreams".

No they didn't.
It sounds like they both took the samples right from the beginning of the record. According to Who Sampled it Nas at 0:00 and Pac at 0:07.

There's a big difference between "Street Dreams" production wise and "Thug Passion".

I assume you meant All Eyes on Me?

Street Dreams" is near identical to the sampled song, "Thug Passion" isn't

Listening to both just now and the original, sounds like the opposite to me.

Having Nas sing it was the Pop way to go about it.

Nah. Having a girl sing it would have been the pop way to go about it. And Nas was barely singing.

still a very commercial record.

Not even close.

Sampling Sting gives the song Pop appeal

I disagree. That was an interesting sample choice because it was from a Sting record, but it had an edge to it.

Melody isn't a broad definition.

Define melody then.

 

[mobbinfms]

How are they virtually identical when the drums are different and there's other minor tweaks?

You're right. The album version is almost identical to the record sampled. The PR version isn't.

Juicy" is the production technique that Bad Boy used.

Explain.

Break beats is probably the only thing you listed that is exclusive to Hip Hop.

Even breakbeats existed prior to hip hop. So did rapping. These are still definitional characteristics of hip hop.

not general consensus. There's a handful of albums that you'd get a general consensus

So you agree with me that general consensus is a thing then?

Supa Dupa Fly had three rap features Busta, Brat, and Missy (not counting Missy's artists who appear on the posse cut near the end of the album). Timbaland raps on a song as well. By the time she came out with her second album, Nas, Jay Z, and Snoop had songs with Timbaland production. His sound was common place.

So what's your point? I thought it was that no one could rhyme on Timbs beats the way that Missy could?

Really? Maybe artists just wanted to have fun with their music again. There was a period in Hip Hop where artists had fun with their music. I guess this is goofy party music too the

Party music or fun music existed way beyond the 80s. Doesn't mean Missy wasn't a cornball.

Every artist I named in the post referring to artists with gay followings quite possibly have a large gay following.

Not quite possibly. Who do You know to have a large gay fanbase?

You're not selling 3-5 million copies without one.

Of course you are. Do you think DMX and Juvenile were big in the gay community when they were doing those kinds of numbers in 98?

You're appealing to a mainstream audience, which includes gays and women.

You're missing the point. Still.

 

[mobbinfms]

And what a way to kill your own argument. Tell me, The Trackmasters went full on pop with Will according to you. Tell me how these beats are Pop, but their productions on IWW aren't:

Just The Two Of Us
Miami
Yes, Yes, Ya'll
Chasing Forever
Just Cruisin'

I've never heard Big Willie Style so I've got no idea what the album cuts sound like. Primarily, I was referring to Getting Jiggy With It. Miami to a lesser degree. I don't remember what Just The Two of Is sounds like.

Jiggy With It just sounds soft as shyt. I couldn't put into words anything they did in particular on that record because I'm not a producer, and some of the blame has to go to Will himself, but that record was the absolute low point of that era.

 

[JustCKing]

Explain.

Puff built his Hitmen around that sound. Nearly that entire crew was looping popular songs from the 80's and making hits out of them. I mean, you take what Easy Mo Bee and Chucky Thompson (he co-produced some R&B records with Puff, but the tracks he had on Ready To Die were rawer) did on Ready To Die and compare it to Life After Death. It's the same formula for every Hip Hop album Bad Boy dropped in the 90's.

Even breakbeats existed prior to hip hop. So did rapping. These are still definitional characteristics of hip hop.

Those two characteristics are more so exclusive to Hip Hop than sampling and drums though.

So you agree with me that general consensus is a thing then?

To an extent, general consensus does exist, but only in instances where a work is nearly universally considered as truth. I'm talking instances where people are almost afraid to question it.

So what's your point? I thought it was that no one could rhyme on Timbs beats the way that Missy could?

I'm talking about songs like "The Rain", "She's A...", and "Get Ur Freak On". Songs that weren't really your conventional beats.

Party music or fun music existed way beyond the 80s. Doesn't mean Missy wasn't a cornball.

That's not the point. You were referring to Missy Elliott debuting during a period where Hip Hop was watered down. I'm saying, Missy is more of a throwback to that era that the songs I posted belong to.

Not quite possibly. Who do You know to have a large gay fanbase?

I don't. I can't sit here and generalize what gay people listen to because I don't frequent their clubs or hang in circles dominated by gay people. I know some gay people and their fans of the same music that straight people listen to.

Of course you are. Do you think DMX and Juvenile were big in the gay community when they were doing those kinds of numbers in 98?

I can tell you for a fact that Juvenile's sound is heavily influenced by bounce. Given what I know about bounce, there's a lot of gay artists that make bounce music. It doesn't make Juvenile's music gay, but to claim they weren't heavy supporters of his would be ludicrous.

If you're going to use that angle, you could conclude that they had bigger gay following than a Missy Elliott would given that they were selling 4-5X's as many millions of records as she was. Thus, much more of the population was copping their albums than they were her's.

You're missing the point. Still.

How am I missing the point? Pac was making songs for the ladies and schooled Biggie to do the same thing. Why? Women are large consumers of music. You're not selling much of anything without them.

 

[JustCKing]

I saw this when you posted it the first time. I want to know which radio stations they are talking about, who classifies a song as rap or hip hop, and what all the exclusive hip hop markets are. I don't expect you to have answers to these questions.

I'd also like in depth information on what they do for the R&B chart.

Here you go:

Billboard charts - WOW.com

I'll have to defer to @Wacky D on that. I'm no Bone fan.
I will say that nothing about that record felt pop to me.

That song still crossed Bone over to an audience that they didn't have before.

No they didn't.
It sounds like they both took the samples right from the beginning of the record. According to Who Sampled it Nas at 0:00 and Pac at 0:07.

I was mistaken on that.

I assume you meant All Eyes on Me?

Yeah I meant that one.

Listening to both just now and the original, sounds like the opposite to me.

They don't sound like opposites. "Street Dreams" instrumental sounds nearly identical to the Linda Clifford song it samples.

Nah. Having a girl sing it would have been the pop way to go about it. And Nas was barely singing.

Having a girl sing it wouldn't have made it more or less Pop than it already was. Nas was singing the same melody and nearly the same words as the Eurythmics record.

Not even close.

It's one of the most commercial songs on the album especially if you're telling me stuff like Will Smith's "Miami" and the songs The Trackmasters did for Will were full on Pop records. Adding insult to injury to your argument is that Nas WROTE a couple of the songs on Will's album.

I disagree. That was an interesting sample choice because it was from a Sting record, but it had an edge to it.

The Sting song is still Pop and adding a hard drum beat to it just gives it a Hip Hop edge.

Define melody then.

I can't put it into words. For reference, you could pretty much listen to how Snoop was rapping on Doggystyle.

 

[JustCKing]

can you prove otherwise?

cuz all signs point to female/casual/gay/pop.

All signs don't point to that if you don't have anything to back it up. Your logic applies to everyone who has ever made music. It's a generalization.

sampling a melody doesn't necessarily make it pop either.

He didn't sample just sample it. He incorporated the lyrics and the melody and sang it himself.

this is pop now?

Read his question. That should answer why I posted that video in response.

 

[OnlyInCalifornia]

It isn't looked down upon and catchy singles have been just as much the foundation/early years of Hip Hop as 'deep' songs.....

Now on The Coli and with backpacker try-hards? Sure, it is. In reality though, people love those catchy singles. Party music will always have a place.

 

[mobbinfms]

They didn't do that though. In fact they gave the album praise.

That was a negative review breh. Very negative.

You're taking "pop" as an insult to Nas's music because you define Pop in a negative light when not all Pop music is watered down garbage.

Replace "pop" with "radio friendly" or "commercial" or some other more accurate term and the review is still savage.

In reference to commercial/radio ready records vs. Pop records, what is an artist attempting to gain by making radio ready/commercial records? If it's not an attempt to appeal to as many people as possible (the masses), which is what Pop music essentially does, then what is it?

It's levels breh. You make a radio friendly single and make you pick up some women who weren't checking for you before. Or brehs who are more R&B oriented. You're moving into a different room, but you're still in the same house. When you go pop, you're trying to move to a different neighborhood

Of course there's a difference between IWW and "Gotta Feeling"

Alright. So are we just debating semantics at this point? You call it pop I call it "commercial" - as long as we understand what's what. I can't tell you which terms to use and vice versa

The beat doesn't have to transition for it to be hook driven. The hook to that song is still catchy because it sticks with you and it works for that particular record, because the hook gives the gun personality.

Yeah - its a good hook. This doesn't explain how the song is hook driven. Hook driven to me means short verses with multiple different hooks or refrains. Super sing along.

She wasn't out here flopping. She simply wasn't releasing any music. Done is when you're out here continuing to drop music, but it all flops.

Ok.

I already did.

I must have missed it.

Ludacris | Similar Artists | AllMusic

There's like 20 artists on that list

that song is pop

You think all hip hop and r&b is pop though...so I get where you are coming from.

 

[mobbinfms]

can you prove otherwise?

cuz all signs point to female/casual/gay/pop.

Here's some evidence that Missy has a large gay fanbase.

Missy Elliott teams up with homophobe
02 October 2003
Adam Cowell

• 
  

Rap and hip-hop star Missy Elliot is reportedly working with known homophobe Elephant Man on her upcoming album.

In news that will anger Missy's large gay fan base, the singer will work with the Jamaican dancehall star on "This Is Not a Test", which is due for release next year.

Elephant Man is currently being investigated by London police, after gay rights activist Peter Tatchell called for his arrest, along with certain other MOBO nominees, last week.

Tatchell claims that such stars, who have written songs calling for violent acts against gay men, should be arrested for inciting hate crimes.

The artist, along with other MOBO nominees Bounty Killer and Beenie Man, is currently having his case reviewed by police officers.

The move to include Elephant Man on her new album is a case of Missy "undermining and disrespecting" her gay fans, according to the UK's leading gay rapper QBoy.

"I am disappointed that Missy Elliott and her record company could be so blind and insensitive regarding this matter," he said today.

Although he added that the artist has the right "to create what music they wish", he attacked the people behind the scenes in the music industry.

"I believe record companies and awards shows such as the MOBO's have a responsibility to not support negative and hateful music."

Missy Elliott teams up with homophobe - GayLifeUK

I found this just by googling "missy elliot gay fanbase"
Shockingly, googling "DMX gay fanbase" didn't turn up anything

 

[mobbinfms]

this is pop now?

@JustCKing is saying that's an R&B record where they don't rap.

 

[mobbinfms]

Not necessarily. You can have crossover music w/o being watered down but watered down music made with the intentions to hit the masses is what I would call "poppy"

What you would call "poppy" is what I call "pop".

 

[A Tribe Called Quest ™]

Here's some evidence that Missy has a large gay fanbase.

Missy Elliott teams up with homophobe
02 October 2003
Adam Cowell

Rap and hip-hop star Missy Elliot is reportedly working with known homophobe Elephant Man on her upcoming album.

In news that will anger Missy's large gay fan base, the singer will work with the Jamaican dancehall star on "This Is Not a Test", which is due for release next year.

Elephant Man is currently being investigated by London police, after gay rights activist Peter Tatchell called for his arrest, along with certain other MOBO nominees, last week.

Tatchell claims that such stars, who have written songs calling for violent acts against gay men, should be arrested for inciting hate crimes.

The artist, along with other MOBO nominees Bounty Killer and Beenie Man, is currently having his case reviewed by police officers.

The move to include Elephant Man on her new album is a case of Missy "undermining and disrespecting" her gay fans, according to the UK's leading gay rapper QBoy.

"I am disappointed that Missy Elliott and her record company could be so blind and insensitive regarding this matter," he said today.

Although he added that the artist has the right "to create what music they wish", he attacked the people behind the scenes in the music industry.

"I believe record companies and awards shows such as the MOBO's have a responsibility to not support negative and hateful music."

Missy Elliott teams up with homophobe - GayLifeUK

I found this just by googling "missy elliot gay fanbase"
Shockingly, googling "DMX gay fanbase" didn't turn up anything

Knowing DMX and his bars he probably did have a gay fanbase

 

[mobbinfms]

Knowing DMX and his bars he probably did have a gay fanbase

He cultivated a gay fanbase through direct one to one marketing while incarcerated

 

[IllmaticDelta]

What you would call "poppy" is what I call "pop".

All "Poppy" is pop but not all pop is poppy