Why is pop/catchy music frowned upon in hip-hop/R&B?

[mobbinfms]

Puff built his Hitmen around that sound. Nearly that entire crew was looping popular songs from the 80's and making hits out of them. I mean, you take what Easy Mo Bee and Chucky Thompson (he co-produced some R&B records with Puff, but the tracks he had on Ready To Die were rawer) did on Ready To Die and compare it to Life After Death. It's the same formula for every Hip Hop album Bad Boy dropped in the 90's.

I hear you. There's a big difference from looping Mtume and El Debarge though as compared to looping very popular David Bowie and The Police records. You're moving out of the neighborhood to re use my analogy from a prior post.

I'm talking about songs like "The Rain", "She's A...", and "Get Ur Freak On". Songs that weren't really your conventional beats.

I think Jay would have done them justice. Nas on them would have been a train wreck.

I don't. I can't sit here and generalize what gay people listen to because I don't frequent their clubs or hang in circles dominated by gay people. I know some gay people and their fans of the same music that straight people listen to.

I posted some evidence of what I was getting at.

I can tell you for a fact that Juvenile's sound is heavily influenced by bounce. Given what I know about bounce, there's a lot of gay artists that make bounce music. It doesn't make Juvenile's music gay, but to claim they weren't heavy supporters of his would be ludicrous.

I googled Juvenile Rapper gay fanbase and learned that Bounce is now gay music in NO apparently...but nothing about Juvy having a gay fan base.
So you can deduce that he had a gay fan base comprised of gay black folks from NO - but nothing beyond that.
And that's not what we're talking about anyway.

If you're going to use that angle, you could conclude that they had bigger gay following than a Missy Elliott would given that they were selling 4-5X's as many millions of records as she was. Thus, much more of the population was copping their albums than they were her's.

We're not talking about total numbers and we're not talking about all gay people though.

Here you go:

Billboard charts - WOW.com

That's not giving me the answers I want, but I appreciate the effort.

That song still crossed Bone over to an audience that they didn't have before.

No doubt. Song was massive. I don't think they recorded that song with the intentions of going pop though. Or reaching outside of the house. (Analogy).

They don't sound like opposites. "Street Dreams" instrumental sounds nearly identical to the Linda Clifford song it samples.

You misunderstood. i'm saying sitting there listening to both records and the original, All Eyez sounds more like the LC record. Which was the opposite of what you are hearing.

Having a girl sing it wouldn't have made it more or less Pop than it already was. Nas was singing the same melody and nearly the same words as the Eurythmics record.

Imagine if Nas would have got Annie Lenox to sing that
That would have completely transformed the record.

It's one of the most commercial songs on the album

Sure. But in the grand scheme of things its hardly commercial...but you know..Illmatic so people apply different standards

Adding insult to injury to your argument is that Nas WROTE a couple of the songs on Will's album.

Some of the blame definitely lies with Will.

The Sting song is still Pop

Sure.

I can't put it into words.

Google the definition - it's ridicously broad.

All signs don't point to that if you don't have anything to back it up. Your logic applies to everyone who has ever made music. It's a generalization.

Check that post.

He incorporated the lyrics and the melody and sang it himself.

Barely sang it. And I don't mean he's a bad off-key singer, he is, but that its not like he was really going for it with the singing
Part of it sounds like rapping.

 

[Wacky D]

commercial records are "pop" by nature. R&B is a form of pop music

what about all the commercial urban records that don't even register in the "pop" scene?

That song still crossed Bone over to an audience that they didn't have before.

so?

did they set out to make that song sound pop?

does that song have pop characteristics?

All signs don't point to that if you don't have anything to back it up. Your logic applies to everyone who has ever made music. It's a generalization.

He didn't sample just sample it. He incorporated the lyrics and the melody and sang it himself.

and everything comes back around full circle. I'm gonna ask you again.

WHERE ALL THESE SERIOUS RAP FANS THAT ARE BIG ON MISSY ELLIOT? WHERE THEY BE AT?

as for the bolded, what song are we talking about again?

@JustCKing is saying that's an R&B record where they don't rap.

LOL.

I guess the mr Ouija joints are r&b records too, according to him.

 

[JustCKing]

That was a negative review breh. Very negative.

How is this negative?

"He remains a poignant figure with a panoramic view of the real and metaphorical ghetto. And his flow is still astounding"

"It Was Written is adequate."

^^^ quotes from the very same review. Far from a negative review.

Replace "pop" with "radio friendly" or "commercial" or some other more accurate term and the review is still savage.

Again, how is it savage?

It's levels breh. You make a radio friendly single and make you pick up some women who weren't checking for you before. Or brehs who are more R&B oriented. You're moving into a different room, but you're still in the same house. When you go pop, you're trying to move to a different neighborhood

You gain more than that by making radio friendly singles. You gain listeners across all spectrums of society. From women to kids to people all over the world. The main point is you're attracting listeners who wouldn't have otherwise discovered your music because it lacked the reach.

Alright. So are we just debating semantics at this point? You call it pop I call it "commercial" - as long as we understand what's what. I can't tell you which terms to use and vice versa

It's far more than semantics. Pop music is essentially commercial music. They serve the purpose.



There's like 20 artists on that list


[/QUOTE]

Prime Luda was a widely popular artist who appealed to many fan bases.

 

[No1]

The answer to your question is that when you are discussing music with snobs liked the ones that frequent this site you get a host of people that take music way too serious and think music should be deep, complex and have the answers to life

You talk about music in the real world, you get people that want music that makes you feel good, dance, and be a soundtrack to a good time

The artist you used as an example the Weeknd is a good one.

But like @Buckeye Fever said, I think you need both... And th artist that are able to do both are usually the biggest artist( Jay z, Drake, future, the weeknd, etc)

I missed this post, but you and @Buckeye Fever miss the obvious answer. Why are Oscar nominated movies more respected than summer blockbusters? It is a matter of skill. Popular music is formulaic and as an emcee it requires you to use less of your lyrical ability more often than not. It's often dumbed down and repetitive. I can enjoy it for what it's worth, but when it starts getting heralded as the greatest thing ever then people start going .

Jay Z himself said that on ignorant shyt. "When I write some thought provoking shyt you question whether or not I'm falling off. When I write Give it to Me you slate me as the best writer of the 21st century." The people on the internet are overzealous rap fans and are the ones who favor the former. They are the people who would be the equivalent to film critics. It's not so much about hating pop music as hating the fact that pop music is revered as "the best" stuff when that does not happen in other art form. Take the Grammys for example, in no other art form would Kendrick Lamar (metacritic: 95) lose to Taylor Swift (metacritic: 77).

 

[JustCKing]

so?

did they set out to make that song sound pop?

does that song have pop characteristics?

There's a such thing as going Pop organically. It's even referenced in that '96 review of Nas's album.

and everything comes back around full circle. I'm gonna ask you again.

WHERE ALL THESE SERIOUS RAP FANS THAT ARE BIG ON MISSY ELLIOT? WHERE THEY BE AT?

as for the bolded, what song are we talking about again?

Yeah, they'd really have an act that doesn't have a Hip Hop fan base perform at Rock The Bells.

Rock The Bells 2012 Lineup: Missy Elliott, Bone Thugs, Kendrick Lamar, And More | SPIN

LOL.

I guess the mr Ouija joints are r&b records too, according to him.

Breh, "Buddah Lovas" is pretty much an R&B song no matter how you slice it.

 

[JustCKing]

I hear you. There's a big difference from looping Mtume and El Debarge though as compared to looping very popular David Bowie and The Police records. You're moving out of the neighborhood to re use my analogy from a prior post.

Which plays to my point of what Nas doing with the Sting and the Eurythmics records. The Trackmasters provided a template for Bad Boy in the late 90's and The Hitmen adopted that formula. The difference is they were no longer just sampling R&B records, they started sampling huge Pop songs.

I think Jay would have done them justice. Nas on them would have been a train wreck.

Jay maybe. None of those songs scream Jay Z though.

I posted some evidence of what I was getting at.

And still what does it actually mean in the grand scheme of things. If you're conceding that there are gay Hip Hop heads, her having gays as fans is irrelevant.

I googled Juvenile Rapper gay fanbase and learned that Bounce is now gay music in NO apparently...but nothing about Juvy having a gay fan base.
So you can deduce that he had a gay fan base comprised of gay black folks from NO - but nothing beyond that.
And that's not what we're talking about anyway.

Bounce didn't just become gay music. It's a sub-genre that's had openly gay artists for sometime. And yes, if you google, you find evidence of Juvenile getting play from gays:

Unknown surveys a crowd that is over 1300 strong by 5 a.m. Slicked with sweat, he whips a Juvenile record off the turntable and seamlessly replaces it with Sisquó's "Thong Song." "Before," he says, "people were trying to listen to hip-hop, but the clubs hadn't brought it to life. They were playing MC Lyte and whatever. They hadn't taken the music to a more hardcore place. Gay people love hip-hop, too, and we have needed the music brought in an original way."

Homo Thugz Blow Up the Spot

We're not talking about total numbers and we're not talking about all gay people though.

Then why is it relevant in the first place?

No doubt. Song was massive. I don't think they recorded that song with the intentions of going pop though. Or reaching outside of the house. (Analogy).

The intent doesn't matter. It's how it's received. I'm sure a lot of artists don't intend for their music to attract or impact some of the listeners that it does.

Some of the blame definitely lies with Will.

If you're faulting Will for something, then the Trackmasters and Nas are also at fault because they assisted him. I'm just saying.

Barely sang it. And I don't mean he's a bad off-key singer, he is, but that its not like he was really going for it with the singing
Part of it sounds like rapping.

In Nas's own words:

"I was definitely the first guy from my era that singing"- Nas, in reference to "Street Dreams"

"Nas was one of the first rappers who made it OK to sing. He’s a very melodic guy. He always loved to do things like that. On “Black Girl Lost,” that has nothing to do with us or Steve Stoute—that’s just him being creative and bringing out who he really is"- Tone (of the Trackmasters)

"We also tried to make sure that on the harder records, the hooks were sing-along enough that they could cross over to the mainstream. That was the strategy."- Poke (of The Trackmasters)

"He was definitely resistant. The thing about Nas is, he’s pure hip-hop. We were trying to cross him over, trying to give him a broader appeal in the marketplace."- Poke (of The Trackmasters)

"Tone: And if the music is too hard, we’ve got to put melodic stuff on top of it to bring it back up. That was how we made sure the album had hard appeal but was broad enough that it didn’t discourage white America."

The Making Of Nas' 'It Was Written'

^^^ I'm sure you've read it, being a fellow Nas fan and all. It sheds light on the perception of IWW. They didn't set out to make a commercial Pop album, but that was how it was initially received.

 

[hex]

Thread is a cluster fukk.

I'll just say this. Popular =/= pop.

Pop music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The terms "popular music" and "pop music" are often used interchangeably, although the former describes all music that is popular (and can include any style); pop music is not the sum of all chart music.

Wu's "Forever" went 4x plat. Does that mean "Triumph" was a pop record? Obviously not, it was just popular.

It's not as hard to understand as some of you are making it seem.

Fred.

 

[hex]

In Nas's own words:

"I was definitely the first guy from my era that singing"- Nas, in reference to "Street Dreams"

"Nas was one of the first rappers who made it OK to sing. He’s a very melodic guy. He always loved to do things like that. On “Black Girl Lost,” that has nothing to do with us or Steve Stoute—that’s just him being creative and bringing out who he really is"- Tone (of the Trackmasters)

"We also tried to make sure that on the harder records, the hooks were sing-along enough that they could cross over to the mainstream. That was the strategy."- Poke (of The Trackmasters)

"He was definitely resistant. The thing about Nas is, he’s pure hip-hop. We were trying to cross him over, trying to give him a broader appeal in the marketplace."- Poke (of The Trackmasters)

"Tone: And if the music is too hard, we’ve got to put melodic stuff on top of it to bring it back up. That was how we made sure the album had hard appeal but was broad enough that it didn’t discourage white America."

The Making Of Nas' 'It Was Written'

^^^ I'm sure you've read it, being a fellow Nas fan and all. It sheds light on the perception of IWW. They didn't set out to make a commercial Pop album, but that was how it was initially received.

They did want to make a commercial pop/cross over record. Track Masters point blank said it, in what you quoted.

"Broad appeal", "cross over", "white America"....how much more plainly do you want them to put it?

Keep in mind nobody would bat in eye to any of this in 2016....but '95-'96? It was damn near blasphemy to talk like this.

And people like Q-Tip seen it early, which is why he told them "you're killing his career". Obviously he was wrong, but Track Masters tried their hardest to make Nas pop.

Fred.

 

[hex]

One of the reasons NWA was as big as they were because the pop song writing structure and influence they derived from other pop influenced acts, the content of lyrics doesn't change the actual song structure. As long as something like that is catchy people will vibe with it

No offense but you wasn't even into rap when any of those songs came out. What are you talking about?

NWA blew up with no hit single, no radio play, no real promotion, and limited spins from a couple videos off the album. "Straight Outta Compton" sold 1 mill because it wasn't like anything else out at the time. It was popular because everyone....police, FBI, parents, politicians....was telling young people to stay away from it. Not because "pop song writing structure". It was the antithesis of anything pop when it came out. Even the name of the group was controversial.

This is why this thread is a mess because people are trying to correlate "pop" and "popular". NWA was extremely popular....there was nothing pop about it. Again, no offense but your whole post sounds like some shyt I'd read from Complex. A whole lot of over thinking. Rap was still relatively new in '88, '89 and here comes gangsta rap, full of sex, violence, and obscenity. Talking about killing cops. Talking about slanging dope. These weren't completely new ideas but they'd never been stated so plainly, prior to that.

To give you an idea of how shocking NWA was, LL Cool J thought The Beastie Boys were too much. That's how comparatively tame rap was, back then.

Fred.

 

[mobbinfms]

How is this negative?

"He remains a poignant figure with a panoramic view of the real and metaphorical ghetto. And his flow is still astounding"

"It Was Written is adequate."

^^^ quotes from the very same review. Far from a negative review.

Post the whole review.
I remember reading it in real time and thinking it was a hatchet job. And starkly contrasting with the Source review as well.
I'm not saying every single word in the review was an attack on Nas, but overall, it was a negative review. No one would walk away from that review thinking Nas just dropped a great album they should run out and get.

You gain more than that by making radio friendly singles. You gain listeners across all spectrums of society. From women to kids to people all over the world. The main point is you're attracting listeners who wouldn't have otherwise discovered your music because it lacked the reach

You can also make music that reaches your core hip hop fan base and other targeted groups. Rapping over an R&B loop doesn't mean the whole world is going to stand up and take notice. R&B fans might....

Pop music is essentially commercial music. They serve the purpose.

Ok. But commercial hip hop music isn't pop. And I thought we had agreed that there was a difference between a record like Street Dreams and Gotta Feeling, no matter how you slice it or what term you use, Gotta Feeling is 100x more pop than Gotta Feeling. Now if you want to call them both pop but acknowledge that one is much more pop, and I want to call one pop and the other a slightly commercial hip hop song...how is it not semantics?

 

[hex]

"IWW" didn't get bad reviews per se, but most rap fans didn't care about religiously reading reviews back then so it's a moot point. I couldn't tell you what "IWW" got Mic-wise if my life depended on it, when it came out. Had no idea.

9 times out of 10 if an argument started, it was over who got Hip-Hop Quotable. Rappers cared about the Mic reviews....fans, not so much.

Side note, saying something is "adequate" isn't a good thing. It's a more polite way of saying "good enough".

Fred.

 

[mobbinfms]

There's a such thing as going Pop organically.

This is why I think that we are just getting caught up in semantics at this point.
Selling a lot of records doesn't mean you went pop.

Yeah, they'd really have an act that doesn't have a Hip Hop fan base perform at Rock The Bells.

Rock The Bells 2012 Lineup: Missy Elliott, Bone Thugs, Kendrick Lamar, And More | SPIN

They have lots of alternative hip hop acts at Rock the Bells. You don't have to be super lyrical miracle to get a spot at RTB.
But I get your point though. Missy leans pop to me, but she isn't Flo Rida or BEP though.

Which plays to my point of what Nas doing with the Sting and the Eurythmics records. The Trackmasters provided a template for Bad Boy in the late 90's and The Hitmen adopted that formula. The difference is they were no longer just sampling R&B records, they started sampling huge Pop songs.

The Message isn't what you're talking about at all. Those huge Bad Boy records in 97 didn't sound anything like the Message.
Rappers had been sampling outside of r&b and soul before the Trackmasters sampled that Sting record...

And still what does it actually mean in the grand scheme of things. If you're conceding that there are gay Hip Hop heads, her having gays as fans is irrelevant.

I don't know how to explain this any clearer.
Of course there are hip hop fans who happen to be gay. That's not what I'm talking about.
What is relevant to the discussion of whether or to what degree Missy is pop is the extent to which she's cultivated a large fan base of gay people who aren't hip hop fans.
Answer these questions for me, why do all these gay people, who otherwise don't like hip hop, listen to Missy?
Why doesn't Rah Digga have the same gay fanbase?
Why does a more popular rapper like DMX not have the same gay fanbase?
What is it about the music that attracts (or doesn't attract) all these gay people who otherwise don't listen to hip hop at all?
Is it reasonable to assume that rappers who make "pop" music or hip hop with "pop" leanings are going to attract more gay people who otherwise don't listen to hip hop at all?

Bounce didn't just become gay music. It's a sub-genre that's had openly gay artists for sometime. And yes, if you google, you find evidence of Juvenile getting play from gays:

Unknown surveys a crowd that is over 1300 strong by 5 a.m. Slicked with sweat, he whips a Juvenile record off the turntable and seamlessly replaces it with Sisquó's "Thong Song." "Before," he says, "people were trying to listen to hip-hop, but the clubs hadn't brought it to life. They were playing MC Lyte and whatever. They hadn't taken the music to a more hardcore place. Gay people love hip-hop, too, and we have needed the music brought in an original way."

Homo Thugz Blow Up the Spot

Props for finding that.
Pretty good article. I thought this part was hilarious:

Unknown slips on an obscure recording by the Bronx-based crew Brand Nubian. "Though I can freak, fly, flow, fukk up a fakkit," goes the rhyme, "don't understand their ways, I ain't down with gays."

Punks Jump Up is an obscure recording now? And since when is New Rochelle the Bronx?
But again, hopefully you understand now that this isn't what I'm talking about at all. These are hip hop fans who happen to be gay. This has no bearing on whehter the rappers played at this party are "pop" or not.

Then why is it relevant in the first place?

See above.

The intent doesn't matter.

That is where we differ. The intent is the key thing.

If you're faulting Will for something, then the Trackmasters and Nas are also at fault because they assisted him. I'm just saying.

I'm saying I "fault" Will because no matter how "pop" or "commercial" the track is, a rapper is gonna rap on top of it and that can make the track more or less "pop" or "commercial". Will is gonna make his records sound more pop just cause that's WIll.

In Nas's own words:

"I was definitely the first guy from my era that singing"- Nas, in reference to "Street Dreams"

"Nas was one of the first rappers who made it OK to sing. He’s a very melodic guy. He always loved to do things like that. On “Black Girl Lost,” that has nothing to do with us or Steve Stoute—that’s just him being creative and bringing out who he really is"- Tone (of the Trackmasters)

"We also tried to make sure that on the harder records, the hooks were sing-along enough that they could cross over to the mainstream. That was the strategy."- Poke (of The Trackmasters)

"He was definitely resistant. The thing about Nas is, he’s pure hip-hop. We were trying to cross him over, trying to give him a broader appeal in the marketplace."- Poke (of The Trackmasters)

"Tone: And if the music is too hard, we’ve got to put melodic stuff on top of it to bring it back up. That was how we made sure the album had hard appeal but was broad enough that it didn’t discourage white America."

The Making Of Nas' 'It Was Written'

^^^ I'm sure you've read it, being a fellow Nas fan and all. It sheds light on the perception of IWW. They didn't set out to make a commercial Pop album, but that was how it was initially received.

I read that years ago. Great piece.
It sounds like Trackmasters wanted to go further and Nas kept them reined in to the extent he could.
I've said before in terms of going commercial - nobody did it more tastefully than Nas on IWW.

 

[mobbinfms]

Thread is a cluster fukk.

Breh. Me and @JustCKing have been going back and forth with walls of text on the nuances of pop vs. commercial, the intricacies of IWW and the exact nature and extent of Missy's gay fanbase for about a week now
I'm gonna tell you like G Rap told Nas, leave now and do not look back.

 

[hex]

Breh. Me and @JustCKing have been going back and forth with walls of text on the nuances of pop vs. commercial, the intricacies of IWW and the exact nature and extent of Missy's gay fanbase for about a week now
I'm gonna tell you like G Rap told Nas, leave now and do not look back.

Fred.

 

[JustCKing]

They did want to make a commercial pop/cross over record. Track Masters point blank said it, in what you quoted.

"Broad appeal", "cross over", "white America"....how much more plainly do you want them to put it?

Keep in mind nobody would bat in eye to any of this in 2016....but '95-'96? It was damn near blasphemy to talk like this.

And people like Q-Tip seen it early, which is why he told them "you're killing his career". Obviously he was wrong, but Track Masters tried their hardest to make Nas pop.

Fred.

This is what I've been arguing the entire time: that Nas and the Trackmasters made a commercial/Pop/cross over record. I mean they blatantly say it in the article, but they also contradict themselves.