The Coli Where we rank Kyle Lowry over Jason Kidd.. Scust @malta

[Jplaya2023]

Than you should know better. You don't have any excuses. At all.

This couldn't be further from the truth, and I'm doubting if you actually know both of their respective game's at all. Past the fact that "making guys better" is an overcompensating term to begin with, the principles behind it can be applied directly to Lowry's approach to the game and skillset - he's an incredible playmaker/passer, he can identify when players need the ball and when they're hot, he is one of the best PGs at balancing when to pass/shoot, he commands a ton of defensive attention with the ball in hand (opening the floor up for the rest of his teammates and giving them more room to work with), he's effective without the ball, he's an outstanding M2M/team defender and he can carry a lead scoring workload to take pressure off his teammates. Whereas Kidd crippled his teams' offenses because of his lack of scoring ability and his reluctance to shoot. His teammates dealt with more defensive attention because he was hesistant to score; therefore fukking up the overall flow of the offense. And in case you haven't read this -

94/95 - playing next to McCloud and Jackson - ended up with the 15th ranked offense
95/96 - relatively the same personnel - finished with the 19th ranked offense.
96/97 DAL - he only played 22 games - finished with the 28th ranked offense
96/97 PHO - he only played 33 games (started only 22), KJ was the one leading the team that season and they had the 6th ranked offense.
97/98 - Kidd took over starting duties, with relatively the same personnel and they ended with the 12th ranked offense (Nash had superior on-court points production than Kidd - propping up the points per 100 possessions - however, keep in mind it was mostly against second units)
98/99 - lockout season, 50 games, few extra changes to the personnel and they end up with the 4th ranked offense - no coincidence it was statistically Kidd's best shooting season.
99/00 - few extra personnel changes, most notably Penny, and they had the 12th ranked offense
00/01 - Penny was injured for pretty much the entire season, and they had the 22nd ranked offense

2001/02 Nets - 17th ranked offfense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2002/03 Nets - 18th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2003/04 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2004/05 Nets - 26th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2005/06 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2006/07 Nets - 16th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2007/08 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)

Across 14-15 seasons when Kidd was the leader of the team, he only orchestrated ONE top-10 offense. I can divide. That's one great offense every 14 season average and that's so....


This is horrible, horrible logic. The PG position is 1000000000000x deeper now, than it was during Kidd's prime. Of course there's gonna be more PGs who're better than Lowry today, than there were when Kidd was at his peak.

just curious, have you ever watched jason kidd play in his apex? You keep trying to boil him down to stats and offensive numbers which means your stats don't tell the tale of his leadership, and defense, and other intangibles he had which made him great. Equating jason kidd to a box scrore severely misses the impact he had on the game and his team. This is no diss i'm seriously curious...

 

[NormanConnors]

From 2011 on, the Celtics were Rondo's team. Anybody who followed the Celtics closely around that time can attest to that. Around that time, Pierce, Garnett and Judas were very clearly on the decline whereas Rondo was taking the reins from them and putting up triple doubles for fun in the playoffs.

Yeah that team catered towards Rondo's strengths in general imo, he was in a good place to be.

 

[hayesc0]

Raptors should keep Lowry and replace Dwane Casey with David Blatt so they can become a dynasty word to @Gil Scott-Heroin

 

[Kami]

nikkas overreacting as always.

 

[Kami]

Than you should know better. You don't have any excuses. At all.

This couldn't be further from the truth, and I'm doubting if you actually know both of their respective game's at all. Past the fact that "making guys better" is an overcompensating term to begin with, the principles behind it can be applied directly to Lowry's approach to the game and skillset - he's an incredible playmaker/passer, he can identify when players need the ball and when they're hot, he is one of the best PGs at balancing when to pass/shoot, he commands a ton of defensive attention with the ball in hand (opening the floor up for the rest of his teammates and giving them more room to work with), he's effective without the ball, he's an outstanding M2M/team defender and he can carry a lead scoring workload to take pressure off his teammates. Whereas Kidd crippled his teams' offenses because of his lack of scoring ability and his reluctance to shoot. His teammates dealt with more defensive attention because he was hesistant to score; therefore fukking up the overall flow of the offense. And in case you haven't read this -

94/95 - playing next to McCloud and Jackson - ended up with the 15th ranked offense
95/96 - relatively the same personnel - finished with the 19th ranked offense.
96/97 DAL - he only played 22 games - finished with the 28th ranked offense
96/97 PHO - he only played 33 games (started only 22), KJ was the one leading the team that season and they had the 6th ranked offense.
97/98 - Kidd took over starting duties, with relatively the same personnel and they ended with the 12th ranked offense (Nash had superior on-court points production than Kidd - propping up the points per 100 possessions - however, keep in mind it was mostly against second units)
98/99 - lockout season, 50 games, few extra changes to the personnel and they end up with the 4th ranked offense - no coincidence it was statistically Kidd's best shooting season.
99/00 - few extra personnel changes, most notably Penny, and they had the 12th ranked offense
00/01 - Penny was injured for pretty much the entire season, and they had the 22nd ranked offense

2001/02 Nets - 17th ranked offfense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2002/03 Nets - 18th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2003/04 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2004/05 Nets - 26th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2005/06 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 37 minutes)
2006/07 Nets - 16th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)
2007/08 Nets - 25th ranked offense (Kidd averaged 36 minutes)

Across 14-15 seasons when Kidd was the leader of the team, he only orchestrated ONE top-10 offense. I can divide. That's one great offense every 14 season average and that's so....


This is horrible, horrible logic. The PG position is 1000000000000x deeper now, than it was during Kidd's prime. Of course there's gonna be more PGs who're better than Lowry today, than there were when Kidd was at his peak.

Somebody gets it. Today everybody wants to be a comedian so it's easy to pick at the nikka.

Lowry arguably had a better season than MVP Nash..that's how far the game had come.

The raptors were on pace to. Real ortg ratings amd finished as a top 5 offense this season. Lowry continues to be underrated

 

[Kami]

I think Lowry has been incredibly unlucky injury wise. Regardless of my opinion on him, at this point I do think that takes away from who he is as a player given how he's entered the playoffs the last 3 years (with 2015 being the worst as he was completely broken down). At some point your injury history becomes part of your identity.

That said, he really has just come off a wrist surgery 2 weeks ago and really hasn't shot well since he's come back. Just watching him play it's clear that's a big reason why he's not as aggressive offensively and has been letting Derozan take care of the lion share of the offense as well as trying to get everyone else involved.

Demar also spent the second half as a primary ball hand\ler..Lowry never got to gel with ibaka or tucker. I believe when he came back he didn't want to mess with the chemistry so he just played in rhythm. He played well vs those bucks and the tow games vs the cavs.

End of the day raptors lost to a tea, nobody expected the, to beat so I don't get these overreactions.

Are folk gonna do this same shyt when Boston or the celtics lose?

 

[Poitier]

Who is the mod of this section? It time to get Gil-Scott-Heroin banned.

 

[threattonature]

just curious, have you ever watched jason kidd play in his apex? You keep trying to boil him down to stats and offensive numbers which means your stats don't tell the tale of his leadership, and defense, and other intangibles he had which made him great. Equating jason kidd to a box scrore severely misses the impact he had on the game and his team. This is no diss i'm seriously curious...

Exactly but apparently none of that matters. Ability to lead a team to wins doesn't matter or the quality of teammates. To constantly lead his team just to winning records year after year even while not playing with much talent tells me all I need to know about Kidd.

 

[Liquid]

Lowry arguably had a better season than MVP Nash.

 

[Jplaya2023]

Exactly but apparently none of that matters. Ability to lead a team to wins doesn't matter or the quality of teammates. To constantly lead his team just to winning records year after year even while not playing with much talent tells me all I need to know about Kidd.

exactly, this stat craze started 5 years ago. No one in 2003 was talking about the shyt people bring up today. they spoke of how does player X impact his team. They wasn't saying "well jason kidd is a worse player than derek fisher because his FG% is lower" or some shyt like that

 

[Houston911]

Who is the mod of this section? It time to get Gil-Scott-Heroin banned.

Never

Gil is tripping on this one though

 

[FTBS]

exactly, this stat craze started 5 years ago. No one in 2003 was talking about the shyt people bring up today. they spoke of how does player X impact his team. They wasn't saying "well jason kidd is a worse player than derek fisher because his FG% is lower" or some shyt like that

Not true. The main argument for the Kobeites against AI was "bu...bu...but FG%". People have always used stats (when they suited their agenda). Only difference now is that stats have gotten more sophisticated.

 

[Piff Huxtable]

Who is the mod of this section? It time to get Gil-Scott-Heroin banned.

no need to ban Gil

but breh has to stop believing that every opinion he has is also automatically a fact

 

[Jplaya2023]

Not true. The main argument for the Kobeites against AI was "bu...bu...but FG%". People have always used stats (when they suited their agenda). Only difference now is that stats have gotten more sophisticated.

right but people weren't bringing up all the trash stats today. back then people talked about FG% mostly to discredit or accept a player.

 

[number21]

Yo...people still arguing for Lowry.